I concur with Karen's (and Trevor's) comments below - there are different perspectives, at least based on my observations with our client constituency. Maybe if we did move the discussion upwards (less granularity, more inclusion) to 5 or so key points, we could be more open to each type of solution, thereby having a broader swath of options.

On the other hand, if open source solutions are the de-facto information that we want to disseminate, that certainly locks out a number of large commercial archive installations - they are invested (literally millions of dollars) in these deployments, and won't be changing over to open-source anytime soon (if ever).

One example off the top of my head is a record label that is "locked" into their current enterprise deployment - the archive is running on an "enterprise-class IT database", but many compromises have been made to accommodate the software, not the other way around - to me, that's a major concern. To the companies selling large IT database apps, it is an "inconvenience". That's not good from my perspective. 

I wonder if we'll ever be in a position to always be up-to-date with respect to commercial solutions as opposed to open-source - while there are several good resources on the web that show the most current roster of open-source projects, there are no real equivalents with respect to commercial apps. I'm sure the "commercial" providers like to "manage the message", which is a distinct differentiator - marketing vs. reality.

I would like to add that one good way to "cull out" the commercial providers is to ask them about source-code escrow - we ran into that issue several times within the NARAS Deliverables document - commercial software at some level will always be a component of digital archiving, but some companies are more apt to agree to this than others. I think this is a decision point worthy of putting in our "top-level" guidelines.

John

John Spencer
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www.bmschace.com
office 615.385.1251/ fax 615.385.0153
mobile 615.714.1199

On Feb 6, 2012, at 2:23 PM, Karen Cariani wrote:

> I think these are all great points.  I am a little concerned that we are
> spending a lot of time narrowing our scope.  I like Trevor's suggestion of
> the 5 key points as guidelines.  I'd like to see us start to generate a
> list of people to talk to and start scheduling those discussions.  I think
> issues will become more clearly defined as we have those discussions.
> 
> Karen
> 
> On 2/6/12 1:22 PM, "Owens, Trevor" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Andrea and Mark.
>> 
>> Great points. I see the value of working toward a broader decision tree
>> that is not open source specific. At the same time I could see that
>> getting us away from the initial interest in Open Source too. I also see
>> some default value to scoping these kinds of things as tightly as we can
>> to make them more manageable.
>> 
>> Does it help the situation if we think of what we would produce as
>> something other than a decision tree? What if instead it was something
>> like "5 key issues when considering open source software as part of
>> preservation and access infrastructure." In that case, we would still
>> focus in on the issues related to open source, but wouldn't necessarily
>> need to branch out into broader comparative issues.
>> 
>> I would be interested to get more input from the group on this. What do
>> we think would be the most useful here? Further, what do we think is
>> tightly scoped enough in this case that it remains doable.
>> 
>> Best, Trevor
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: The NDSA infrastructure working group list
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Goethals, Andrea
>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:24 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group Call
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> Good point. I think I got confused about whether we were specifically
>> trying to focus on open source solutions or not.
>> 
>> Andrea
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: The NDSA infrastructure working group list [mailto:NDSA-
>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Evans
>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:49 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group
>>> Call
>>> 
>>> Andrea,
>>> 
>>> The  "Buy" option suggest that its a decision to use commercial
>>> solution or services, which could be built off either open source,
>>> proprietary or hybrid components. The essence being that its not a
>>> decision to completely make use of open source technologies.
>>> 
>>> Therefore If we are including "Buy" then I  think the decision tree
>>> should not be limited to open source only.
>>> 
>>> M
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark Evans
>>> Digital Archiving Practice Manager
>>> Tessella Inc
>>> 51 Monroe Street, Suite 702, Rockville, MD 20850, USA
>>> E: [log in to unmask], T: (1) 240 403-7502, C: (1) 240 401 6256,
>>> F:
>>> (1) 240 403-7507
>>> 
>>> http://www.digital-preservation.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This message is commercial in confidence and may be privileged. It is
>>> intended for the addressee(s) only. Access to this message by anyone
>>> else is unauthorized and strictly prohibited. If you have received
>>> this message in error, please inform the sender immediately. Please
>>> note that messages sent or received by the Tessella e-mail system may
>>> be monitored and stored in an information retrieval system.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "Goethals, Andrea" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent by: The NDSA infrastructure working group list
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> 02/03/2012 03:33 PM
>>> Please respond to
>>> The NDSA infrastructure working group list
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> cc
>>> 
>>> Subject
>>> Re: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group Call
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> Karen, Trevor and Jefferson - thanks for getting the project scope
>>> started. I looked at the scoping the project section and made a few
>>> purely
>>> syntactic edits. When I got to the third point I started to word-smith
>>> the
>>> description but then realized I was confused and left it half done. I
>>> wasn't sure what the decision support tool was going to cover. Is it
>>> the
>>> key decision points when deciding whether to build, buy or adopt open
>>> source solutions; or is it the key decision points when deciding
>>> whether
>>> to build, buy or adopt open source or non-open source solutions? In
>>> other
>>> words, is the decision whether to build, buy or adopt, and the decision
>>> that it be open-source is assumed?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Andrea
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: The NDSA infrastructure working group list [mailto:NDSA-
>>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bailey,
>>>> Jefferson
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 1:18 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group Call
>>>> 
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> We have posted draft notes from Tuesday's call on the wiki. There are
>>>> available at this link and are pasted full-text at the bottom of this
>>>> email:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> http://www.loc.gov/extranet/wiki/osi/ndiip/ndsa/index.php?title=Tuesday
>>>> ,_January_31,_2012
>>>> 
>>>> Feel free to tweak or make edits to the notes on the wiki page.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, we have posted a first-draft towards scoping out a baseline
>>>> description of our OSS project. Please take a look and edit or append
>>>> the wiki or discuss over the listserv. The current text can be found
>>> in
>>>> the "Scoping the Project" section on project wiki page:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> http://www.loc.gov/extranet/wiki/osi/ndiip/ndsa/index.php?title=Open_So
>>>> urce_Software
>>>> 
>>>> Lastly, our next call will be Tuesday, February 28, 2012 at 2pm EST.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Karen, Trevor, & Jefferson
>>>> _____
>>>> 
>>>> Infrastructure Working Group Call, January 31, 2012, 2pm-3pm
>>>> 
>>>> ==Attending==
>>>> 
>>>> *Trevor Owens, Library of Congress
>>>> *Karen Cariani, WGBH
>>>> *Dave MacCarn, WGBH
>>>> *Jefferson Bailey, Library of Congress
>>>> *Aaron Trehub, Auburn University
>>>> *Mitch Brodsky, NY Philharmonic
>>>> *John Spenser, BMS Chase
>>>> *Martin Jacobson, NARA
>>>> *Michael Sterling, Academy of Motion Pictures
>>>> *Corey Snavely, University of Michigan
>>>> *Micah Altman, Harvard University (soon to be MIT)
>>>> *Nicole Scalessa, Library Company of Philadelphia
>>>> *Dean Farrell, UNC
>>>> *Elizabeth Perkes, Utah State Archives
>>>> *Bob Downs, Columbia University
>>>> *Joe Pawletko, NYU
>>>> *Dan Dodge, Thompson Reuters
>>>> *Priscilla Caplan, FCLA
>>>> *Andrea Goethels, Harvard University
>>>> *Linda Tadic, Audiovisual Archive Network
>>>> *Shaun Nicholson, Michigan State
>>>> *Martin Halbert, UNT
>>>> 
>>>> ==Agenda==
>>>> *Update on Storage Report activities
>>>> *Discussion of our OSS project
>>>> *Update on other NDSA WG activities
>>>> 
>>>> ==Storage Report==
>>>> *Two posts have been published on the NDIIPP blog highlighting and
>>>> analyzing results from the NDSA storage survey.
>>>> *Access: http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservation/2011/12/diversity-
>>> of-
>>>> access-to-digital-preservation-collections-first-results-from-the-
>>> ndsa-
>>>> storage-survey/
>>>> *Cloud: http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservation/2012/01/partly-
>>> cloudy-
>>>> trends-in-distributed-and-remote-preservation-storage-more-results-
>>>> from-the-ndsa-storage-survey/
>>>> *Three more are planned: one (in draft form now) on fixity, one on
>>>> administrative/managerial complexities, and one summary post that
>>> will
>>>> also included any stats/results that didn't fall into the previous
>>> four
>>>> posts.
>>>> *We are still tossing around ideas for the form of a final product
>>> from
>>>> this project, so ping the list if you have ideas or would like to be
>>>> involved in that effort.
>>>> 
>>>> ==OSS Project==
>>>> Discussion:
>>>> *We are continuing to brainstorm on potential questions and who
>>> exactly
>>>> to pose them to as far as decision-making around open-source software
>>>> use for digital preservation.
>>>> *There is still a lack of clarity on who we want to invite to comment
>>>> and how we proceed developing question.
>>>> *One idea is to develop questions for ourselves first (meaning the
>>>> working group), then refine the question, then post to the NDSA
>>>> membership (much like the storage survey).
>>>> *Would also be useful to talk to folks who are experts or have
>>>> experience in this area to tease out issues before writing questions.
>>>> *Are our questions around decision-making for using, or for
>>>> participating in and contributing to projects?
>>>> *One potential approach is to look at thinks like Lyasis' FLOSS
>>> project
>>>> and other the other resources on the wiki. Then we can comment on
>>> what
>>>> features or formats we like from those materials materials.
>>>> *We need to figure out the scope of the questions -- should we make
>>>> distinctions between types of software (there's a difference between
>>>> file-renaming software and a full repository) - what's our focus?
>>>> *One use-case: enterprise tools for long-term access/preservation.
>>> That
>>>> is a decision that involves a different time horizon (for long-term
>>>> preservation in memory institutions) than a commercial, enterprise-
>>> wide
>>>> solution.
>>>> *Also the case of OSS on top of commercial piece (combination of
>>> build,
>>>> buy, and adopt).
>>>> *Also the case of "commercial open source" which is increasingly
>>>> prevalent, underlying OSS but with pay-for features or support or
>>>> implementation on top of it.
>>>> *It would work best to hone the focus before we begin thinking of
>>>> questions and/or communities/institutions to query.
>>>> 
>>>> ==Other NDSA news==
>>>> 
>>>> ==Innovation news==
>>>> * Innovation members are planning on participating in the Google
>>> Summer
>>>> of Code project. If any Infrastructure members would like to take
>>> part
>>>> (which involves mentoring a student developer/programmer who will
>>> write
>>>> code for an open-source software project), contact Jefferson or
>>> Trevor
>>>> and we will provide more info on the project & requirements.
>>>> *Innovation Awards: the annual awards program will be announced soon
>>>> and more information will be disseminated NDSA-wide. Please submit,
>>> and
>>>> encourage others to submit, nominations for people, projects,
>>>> institutions, or students/educators demonstrating innovation in the
>>>> field of digital preservation and stewardship.
>>>> 
>>>> ==Standards==
>>>> *There is a "wiki project" in development to document digital
>>>> preservation standards and guidelines on Wikipedia.
>>>> *Another project is to conduct a staffing survey to see how
>>>> institutions have staffed themselves for digital preservation:
>>> numbers
>>>> of employees, organizational structure, skills expected of
>>>> employees/job applications, their ideal staffing levels, their
>>>> projected staffing levels, etc. The survey will be of both the NDSA
>>>> community and external institutions.
>>>> *Another project is to conduct a survey of what standards are
>>> currently
>>>> in use around digital preservation tasks at NDSA institution and then
>>>> track this information over time to determine trends, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> ==Outreach==
>>>> *Creating "digital preservation in a box," a collection of resources
>>>> for digital preservation.
>>>> *Storytellers series, which collects unique or evocative stories
>>> about
>>>> digital preservation.
>>>> 
>>>> ==Content==
>>>> *Working with WordPress to develop an "opt-in" plug-in which blog
>>>> creators can activate to note their content is available/allowable
>>> for
>>>> harvesting.
>>>> 
>>>> ==Action items==
>>>> *Trevor/Micah will write a short, one paragraph statement scoping out
>>> a
>>>> baseline description for considering OSS when building digital
>>>> preservation infrastructure for long-term access & preservation
>>> [done]
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.loc.gov/extranet/wiki/osi/ndiip/ndsa/index.php?title=Open_Sour
>>> ce_Software
> 
>>>> *The group will review text posted to the wiki and comment over the
>>>> listserv.
>>>> *The group will continue reviewing, commenting on, and adding to the
>>>> OSS resources currently posted to the wiki, especially anything that
>>>> provides a good example or model of what we hope to provide.
>>>> *Related: The Digital Dilemma 2 paper is now available for download
>>>> *Next call will be Tuesday, February 28, 2012 at 2pm EST
>>>> 
>>>> ############################
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