 |
 |
So what was agreed to keep on anvil? I don't really want any aspect of c4l on it. On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Gabriel Farrell wrote: > Okay, no objections, and it's afternoon in Philly, so here it is. I > think the following snippet pretty much covers yesterday's discussion. > I don't think anyone said anything too incriminating. Please > excuse my > out-of-place Helen Thomas incrementing. Oh, and, mjgiarlo, I hope you > didn't mean for that exclamation point to be real. > > > 2007-08-01T14:57:53 *** jaf changes topic to "discussion on > hosting code4lib.org" > 2007-08-01T14:58:03 <ksclarke> the time has come, eh? > 2007-08-01T14:58:09 <jaf> in a minute, yes :) > 2007-08-01T14:58:28 <wtd> Attention! Attention! Discussion > beginning soon. > 2007-08-01T14:58:35 <jaf> ok, the time is upon us > 2007-08-01T14:58:36 <dbs> wtd: Sigh. Check my blog post. > 2007-08-01T14:58:37 <wtd> Everyone load up their channel loggers. > 2007-08-01T14:59:00 <jaf> roll call, please: let's make sure folks > are active > 2007-08-01T14:59:02 <jaf> I'm here > 2007-08-01T14:59:05 <ksclarke> here > 2007-08-01T14:59:12 <rsinger> tom servo! > 2007-08-01T14:59:12 <jbrinley> moo > 2007-08-01T14:59:14 <jrochkind> I'm observing. > 2007-08-01T14:59:16 <rsinger> croooooooooooooooooooow! > 2007-08-01T14:59:25 <wtd> I'm here. I have an account on anvil (no > root) and host a Rails site on it. > 2007-08-01T14:59:33 <ksclarke> edsu back yet? > 2007-08-01T14:59:40 <wickr> I'm observing > 2007-08-01T14:59:43 <wtd> anvil.lisforge.net, that is, the box > that got hacked. > 2007-08-01T14:59:49 <jbrinley> .seen edsu > 2007-08-01T14:59:49 <zoia> jbrinley: edsu was last seen in > #code4lib 4 hours, 18 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <edsu> like the > librarything guys talk, and others > 2007-08-01T15:00:09 <jaf> my local clock says 11:59, so let's wait > another minute or so > 2007-08-01T15:00:17 <ksclarke> sounds good > 2007-08-01T15:00:20 <wickr> edsu said he might be able to pop in > for a bit, and he might not > 2007-08-01T15:00:35 <rsinger> plus, these are library types-- we > need to give the customary 5 minutes > 2007-08-01T15:00:38 * rordway is here > 2007-08-01T15:00:43 <ksclarke> rsinger++ > 2007-08-01T15:00:56 <jaf> ok, well, we probably should begin the > discussion > 2007-08-01T15:00:57 <rordway> according to my Mac, it's now 12:00 > 2007-08-01T15:01:06 <jaf> the proposal on the table, as I > understand it, is thus: > 2007-08-01T15:01:18 <jaf> move the production version of > code4lib.org over to a server here at OSU > 2007-08-01T15:01:25 *** rob_desk has joined #code4lib > 2007-08-01T15:01:30 <jaf> use anvil as a development enivornment > 2007-08-01T15:01:41 <jaf> and set up policies for admin support > and access of code4lib.org > 2007-08-01T15:01:51 <wtd> Is that *.code4lib.org? journal, planet, > etc? > 2007-08-01T15:02:02 <jaf> wtd: yes, *.code4lib.org > 2007-08-01T15:02:06 <rsinger> hrm > 2007-08-01T15:02:12 <rsinger> dilettantes? > 2007-08-01T15:02:15 <jaf> so, currently we are talking www, > planet, and journal > 2007-08-01T15:02:16 *** tholbroo has quit IRC > 2007-08-01T15:02:29 <rsinger> jaf: there's more -- svn > 2007-08-01T15:02:35 <jaf> ok, and svn :) > 2007-08-01T15:02:37 <ksclarke> and trac > 2007-08-01T15:02:38 <jaf> and trac > 2007-08-01T15:02:39 <rsinger> trac? > 2007-08-01T15:02:40 <rsinger> yeah > 2007-08-01T15:02:46 <jrochkind> ++ > 2007-08-01T15:02:52 <wtd> There are about, what, ten other more or > less production sites hosted on the box? > 2007-08-01T15:03:01 <jaf> wtd: what are those? > 2007-08-01T15:03:05 <jrochkind> Will OSU donate this service? > Does this include sysadmin staffing, or just hardware/network, or > what? > 2007-08-01T15:03:17 <ksclarke> wtd, what, code4lib things or other > people's things? > 2007-08-01T15:03:17 <rordway> [a-zA-Z+].code4lib? :-) > 2007-08-01T15:03:38 <ksclarke> we're only talking code4lib stuff I > believe > 2007-08-01T15:03:43 <wtd> Ah, OK. > 2007-08-01T15:03:46 <jaf> jrochkind: we are donating the server > space, bandwith, and will support the software running on the box > in terms of security and uptime > 2007-08-01T15:03:52 <jrochkind> Awesome. > 2007-08-01T15:03:59 <wtd> So this is a sort of formalization and > Oregon State adoption of code4lib.org as an online presence. > 2007-08-01T15:04:06 <ksclarke> osu++ > 2007-08-01T15:04:08 <jaf> but we'd also like some commitment from > the community for helping with the general admin of the software > 2007-08-01T15:04:12 <rsinger> hmm > 2007-08-01T15:04:17 <rsinger> i'm still not sure about this > 2007-08-01T15:04:18 <jaf> wtd: no > 2007-08-01T15:04:31 <ksclarke> so how will you manage letting > people have the privs for that help, jaf? > 2007-08-01T15:04:33 <jbrinley> jaf: commitment of what sort? > 2007-08-01T15:04:37 <rsinger> 1) my online presence is in the > code4lib.org domain > 2007-08-01T15:04:49 <jaf> in other words, we're not going to set > policies on / about code4lib.org > 2007-08-01T15:04:52 <bradl> jaf: sounds like you have it handled :) > 2007-08-01T15:05:01 <jaf> we're going to commit to a level of > support to assure uptime > 2007-08-01T15:05:09 <ksclarke> yeah, rsinger, yours is the > exception (personal in the domain) > 2007-08-01T15:05:12 <jaf> but other than that, it's still the > community that controls c4l.org > 2007-08-01T15:05:15 <rsinger> 2) what if, say, osu counsel (or > anyone in the chain) objected to something in the code4lib.org > domain and wanted it to be taken down? > 2007-08-01T15:05:18 <jrochkind> We would want to make sure that > OSU disclaims any ownership of any 'intellectual property' on > *.code4lib.org. If minds are changed later, we want no legal > barriers to moving it somewhere else. > 2007-08-01T15:05:43 <jaf> rsinger, jrochkind: no problems there. > We claim no copyright / ownership of the content > 2007-08-01T15:06:01 <ksclarke> and not even any osu branding right > jaf? > 2007-08-01T15:06:07 <wtd> OSU providing free hosting, bandwidth, > and tech support, and having no say over any content or > administration, sounds pretty damn useful. > 2007-08-01T15:06:08 <rsinger> jaf: is that actually feasible? i > mean, legally? > 2007-08-01T15:06:12 <jaf> rsinger: yes > 2007-08-01T15:06:13 <ksclarke> but do you have policies for the > type of material that you all can host? > 2007-08-01T15:06:14 <rsinger> isn't osu liable at some point? > 2007-08-01T15:06:15 <jaf> ksclarke: yes > 2007-08-01T15:06:29 <jrochkind> Also, that the DNS were set up so > things running on the current anvil can still run at > [various].code4lib.org . So if you prefer to run a code4lib > domained service not on OSU, you still could. > 2007-08-01T15:06:30 <rordway> jaf is liable :-) > 2007-08-01T15:06:31 <jaf> rsinger: are you going to make us liable > for something? ;-) > 2007-08-01T15:06:43 <rsinger> don't i always? > 2007-08-01T15:07:00 <ksclarke> jrochkind, that would be nec. for > rsinger's dila... > 2007-08-01T15:07:05 <jaf> as long as truly illegal stuff doesn't > happen on c4l.org, we should be fine > 2007-08-01T15:07:08 <jrochkind> That's what I'm thinking. > 2007-08-01T15:07:16 <jaf> i.e. no pr0n, illegal filesharing, etc. > 2007-08-01T15:07:23 <rsinger> jaf: i guess i'm trying to make sure > that all our t's are crossed and whatnot > 2007-08-01T15:07:36 <jrochkind> anvil is still available for > hosting *.code4lib.org, so long as it's owners want to keep making > it available. But things that we want to be uptime-guaranteed, we > can put on the OSU server. > 2007-08-01T15:07:39 <ksclarke> jaf: after all illegal filesharing > is why we have anvil > 2007-08-01T15:07:41 <jaf> rsinger: you cross your t's? Sounds like > an a-type personality to me..... > 2007-08-01T15:07:43 <rordway> ksclarke: we have policies for what > we can host, but I don't think there is anything that would be of > conflict > 2007-08-01T15:07:44 <ksclarke> just joking > 2007-08-01T15:08:07 <rsinger> jaf: the advantage to it having > lived in neutral territory thus far is that the issue of governance > hasn't been an issue > 2007-08-01T15:08:15 <jrochkind> If OSU gives us problems---the > content on the OSU server can always be moved away. (Although of > course that would be a pain in the ass nobody would look forward to). > 2007-08-01T15:08:17 <jaf> so, another thing: Domain ownership is > still with edsu > 2007-08-01T15:08:32 <rsinger> jaf: since none of the owners of the > machine have cared to interfere > 2007-08-01T15:08:35 <rsinger> (obviously) > 2007-08-01T15:08:39 <jaf> so, yes, following up on jrochkind, if > problems arise, things can be copied and pointed elsewhere > 2007-08-01T15:08:40 <wtd> This is the equivalent of code4lib.org > getting an unused office and a phone line and doing whatever it > wants, basically. > 2007-08-01T15:08:50 <jaf> wtd: yes > 2007-08-01T15:08:59 * ksclarke chuckles > 2007-08-01T15:08:59 <zoia> ksclarke: true, true > 2007-08-01T15:09:12 <rsinger> wtd: i guess i'm just skeptical that > there are no strings attached with that deal > 2007-08-01T15:09:17 <jrochkind> wtd: And OSU pays for the > utilities, and for the plumber who needs to come biweekly for our > leaky plumbing. > 2007-08-01T15:09:32 <jaf> rsinger: so, what strings are you > specifically worried about? > 2007-08-01T15:09:38 <rsinger> or that somebody won't come in > eventually to explain that the strings have always been there > 2007-08-01T15:09:38 <ksclarke> jaf: I'm curious who will have > login access to the box > 2007-08-01T15:09:38 <jrochkind> Would a written contract make you > feel better? Would OSU be willing to sign such? (Who would they > sign it WITH, I don't know). > 2007-08-01T15:10:04 <eby> finally around > 2007-08-01T15:10:17 <jrochkind> As long as our content doesn't get > held hostage, the worst case doesn't seem that bad to me. As long > as the content can be moved elsewhere if strings do appear. > 2007-08-01T15:10:20 <jaf> ksclarke: I think that's part of the > discussion here. That's for the folks in the c4l community to > decide, and Mr. Ordway to say, "that's doable" > 2007-08-01T15:10:22 <ksclarke> not a having a who to sign it with > is why it's not at princeton (which I thought about at one point) > 2007-08-01T15:10:28 <rsinger> jaf: again, it comes down to > governance -- government entities tend to be far more conservative > about the sorts of services they host > 2007-08-01T15:10:51 <jaf> rsinger: this is oregon, dude. > 2007-08-01T15:10:54 <jaf> :) > 2007-08-01T15:10:57 <ksclarke> rsinger: well any service can still > be hosted from anvil if one of the box people want > 2007-08-01T15:10:58 <rordway> haha > 2007-08-01T15:11:00 *** caroldotou has quit IRC > 2007-08-01T15:11:14 <mjgiarlo> "let's settle this over a case of PBR" > 2007-08-01T15:11:20 <jaf> so, OSU has some precident here through > the open source lab hosting for a variety of projects > 2007-08-01T15:11:24 <rsinger> jaf: that may be, but i bet you're > university lawyers are as chickenshit as any other university lawyers > 2007-08-01T15:11:38 <rsinger> s/you're/your/ > 2007-08-01T15:11:44 <rordway> the only caveat that I'm aware of on > our side is Network Engineering/IS has to approve of the hosting of > the "domain", not even necessarily the content > 2007-08-01T15:11:45 <eby> what's osu's policy on responding to > complaints > 2007-08-01T15:11:58 <jaf> eby: what type of complaints? > 2007-08-01T15:12:01 <eby> inform, shutoff, delete? > 2007-08-01T15:12:04 *** danja has quit IRC > 2007-08-01T15:12:06 <eby> content or legal > 2007-08-01T15:12:07 <rsinger> eby: that's more what i'm getting, i > guess > 2007-08-01T15:12:14 <ksclarke> rordway will this be on its own box > or a shared machine? > 2007-08-01T15:12:17 <jaf> i haven't had much experience on such > 2007-08-01T15:12:30 <jaf> we've had some issues with pr0n being > placed on our wiki via spammers > 2007-08-01T15:12:39 <jaf> but those were handled directly > 2007-08-01T15:13:03 <rordway> ksclarke: probably an isolated Xen > guest > 2007-08-01T15:13:05 <jaf> i imagine if a complaint were to occur, > our network services would contact my boss, who would inform me > 2007-08-01T15:13:11 <rordway> so effectively it would be dedicated > 2007-08-01T15:13:28 <jaf> so, basically, at that point, it would > be my roll to deal with whatever situation would occur > 2007-08-01T15:13:47 <ksclarke> how many people are you comfortable > with having access to the machine? is there a number? > 2007-08-01T15:14:03 <rordway> and yes, usually NET gets a > complaint, they usually forward it along to my group, Library > Technology, and we handle it > 2007-08-01T15:14:05 <jaf> but truly, are we anticipating some sort > of content that would cause this? > 2007-08-01T15:14:20 <ksclarke> and is there a way to decide who > those people are? /me wonders aloud > 2007-08-01T15:14:39 <rsinger> jaf: i think we need to to cover our > asses > 2007-08-01T15:14:43 <wtd> ksclarke: Wouldn't you start with who > has codelib.org-related access to anvil, and grow from there? > 2007-08-01T15:14:45 <eby> jaf: i don't expect directly but with a > semi-open drupal it could come up indirectly > 2007-08-01T15:14:48 <jaf> i mean, if I'm understanding what eby > and rsinger are bringing up, is this the equivilant of a takedown > notice brought on by something like the DMCA? > 2007-08-01T15:15:03 <rsinger> or libel > 2007-08-01T15:15:44 *** caroldotou has joined #code4lib > 2007-08-01T15:15:47 <jaf> so, one benefit of having this at a > public academic institution is that it's probably more difficult to > have abuse of takedown notices via DMCA then at a normal ISP > 2007-08-01T15:16:01 <ksclarke> wtd: not all the folks on anvil > have any c4l leanings so I think that list would just be eby, me, > edsu, you, rsinger > 2007-08-01T15:16:26 <ksclarke> am I forgetting anyone? I don't > think credding or dfox have any desire to > 2007-08-01T15:16:32 <wtd> Good enough to start with. > 2007-08-01T15:16:33 <jaf> and we (OSU) have to deal with this on > our wiki, with blogs, etc. so this issue wouldn't be particular to > c4l.org > 2007-08-01T15:16:52 <jrochkind> We could, from the start, set up > some kind of mirroring routine to mirror OSU content to anvil. So > with the flip of a DNS entry, it could be switched back to anvil. > 2007-08-01T15:16:56 <jbrinley> wtd, ksclarke: I would like to > request some sort of access for the journal, but it's not > absolutely necessary > 2007-08-01T15:16:59 <jrochkind> But that would take someone to > work on setting that up. Not me. > 2007-08-01T15:17:09 <ksclarke> jaf, but having access at the wiki > level is a bit different than machine level > 2007-08-01T15:17:18 <wtd> Given codelib.org's growth over the past > n years, and foreseeable future, it sounds like it's just strange > edge conditions that are the concern here. > 2007-08-01T15:17:19 <jaf> jrochkind: I believe that the journal > would be fine to be hosted on the production server > 2007-08-01T15:17:49 <jrochkind> jaf: I assumed so. I really want a > more uptime-confident host for the journal. > 2007-08-01T15:17:58 <ksclarke> jrochkind: yeah, mirroring sounds > good... I've had other offers as spots to mirror c4l too so we'd > have multiple redundancy > 2007-08-01T15:17:59 <jaf> ksclarke: true, but I'm trying to > address rsinger's and eby's concerns. Command-line access is > another issue to decide > 2007-08-01T15:18:10 <jbrinley> jaf: I'm meaning access to load > files, WP templates, etc., for admining the journal website. > 2007-08-01T15:18:10 <rordway> ksclarke: oh, actually that would be > a pair of Xen guests behind our foundry serveriron > 2007-08-01T15:18:13 <wtd> Would the box fit into any existing OSU > service level agreements? > 2007-08-01T15:18:28 <ksclarke> osu --> anvil + others > 2007-08-01T15:18:48 <jrochkind> jaf: Yeah, we'd need command line > access (although not root, of course) for many of these services, I > think. To provide the software management you want us to provide. > Otherwise it'll be way too much work for your admins responding to > our requests. > 2007-08-01T15:18:56 <jbrinley> jaf: right now I give files to eby > and eby uploads them for me > 2007-08-01T15:19:07 <eby> wtd: i think the community tends to be > open and there might be concerns by others about their freedom to > express. It doesn't really bother me > 2007-08-01T15:19:09 <ksclarke> jbrinley, yeah you should have > machine access I think > 2007-08-01T15:19:24 <ksclarke> on the prod > 2007-08-01T15:19:32 <jaf> jrochkind, jbrinley: right, these are > details that can be worked out, I think. The policies wouldn't be > decided by OSU, but by us, the c4l community > 2007-08-01T15:19:51 <jbrinley> jaf: good point. A discussion for > another day. > 2007-08-01T15:20:04 <eby> jaf: are you still with innovative > 2007-08-01T15:20:06 <njvack> jaf: There must be a University-wide > network use policy at OSU...? We'd probably need to follow that. > 2007-08-01T15:20:07 <wtd> About the root question, OSU would have > root access, but just use it for adminning, and others would have > root as decided? > 2007-08-01T15:20:07 <jrochkind> As long as it's clear that we will > not have constraints we do not want from OSU. > 2007-08-01T15:20:15 <jaf> what I would recommend, putting my c4l > hat on, is that we set up policies that help us keep c4l.org secure > and up and running > 2007-08-01T15:20:15 <gabe> helen_thomas++ > 2007-08-01T15:20:22 <jrochkind> jaf insists we will not. rsinger > is not entirely convinced. > 2007-08-01T15:20:50 <jaf> eby: yes, we are still with innovative. > please don't hold it against us :-) > 2007-08-01T15:21:11 <ksclarke> jaf: policies, heh, now see that's > why this will never work on anvil ;-) > 2007-08-01T15:21:20 <jrochkind> To me, it's cost-benefit. I agree > with rsinger that is a risk of OSU attaching strings at a later > date. I think it's worth the risk, especially if we from the start > have a game plan as to what we'll do in that case (move the stuff > away if neccesary) and how (by setting up mirroring to make it > easy, etc.). > 2007-08-01T15:21:20 <rordway> the only time that OSU would have to > step in is if something within the site were violating the > university AUP, which the only time that would happen I would > imagine would be if the system were somehow compromised and was > hosting pr0n or warez > 2007-08-01T15:21:24 <jaf> njvack: I don't have any such policy > immediately handy, but as I've stated, there is precident here at > OSU for hosting these types of sites > 2007-08-01T15:21:30 <gabe> oops, sorry for the interruption -- /me > reads scrollback > 2007-08-01T15:21:40 <ksclarke> I'm for using osu as production as > long as we aren't tied in in anyway and can always do what we want > in the future > 2007-08-01T15:21:59 <jaf> ksclarke: yes, I think that's key. There > is an exit policy if folks aren't happy with us hosting the site > 2007-08-01T15:22:02 <rordway> and the way that is usually handled > is usually fairly informal. NET contacts Library Technology (me and > others), and we remove the offending content > 2007-08-01T15:22:10 <jrochkind> rordway: Or cataloging records > that some Big Library claims are their IP? Same as warez to the > university lawyers. But I say, okay, so we put THOSE on anvil not > at OSU. > 2007-08-01T15:22:26 <ksclarke> and as jrochkind says we have the > redundant servers in place to make that easy > 2007-08-01T15:22:31 <rsinger> hrm > 2007-08-01T15:22:32 <rordway> right > 2007-08-01T15:22:45 <wtd> +1 from me too, "as long as we aren't > tied in any way and can always do what we want," as ksclarke put it. > 2007-08-01T15:22:46 <jaf> So, I think the key here is that as long > as we keep the agreement with OSU informal, we have a lot of > flexibility and can make this work easily > 2007-08-01T15:22:48 <rsinger> rordway: but who decides 'offending > content'? > 2007-08-01T15:23:13 <wtd> What jaf and rordway sketch out sounds > appealing. > 2007-08-01T15:23:16 <jrochkind> jaf: As long as you are still at > OSU, anyway, I think the risk is low. But you won't be there forever. > 2007-08-01T15:23:19 <eby> rsinger: innovative calling their director? > 2007-08-01T15:23:27 <rsinger> eby: that's what i'm getting at > 2007-08-01T15:23:33 <jaf> jrochkind: is anything forever? ;-) > 2007-08-01T15:23:53 <jrochkind> Despite what jaf and rordway say, > I think we should realize there is indeed some risk of University > Lawyers. I just think it's worth it, especially if we have a game > plan for dealing with it. > 2007-08-01T15:23:55 *** Cicer0 has joined #code4lib > 2007-08-01T15:23:58 * rordway is looking for the AUP > 2007-08-01T15:24:04 <jaf> so, trust me on this, III has no > influence on what we say or do > 2007-08-01T15:24:04 <rsinger> my point is that 'threat of > litigation' is generally enough to make university lawyers buckle > 2007-08-01T15:24:16 <jaf> I mean, has anyone seen any of reeset's > presentations? ;-) > 2007-08-01T15:24:22 <jrochkind> The university lawyers are > unlikely to object to journal.code4lib.org, or with code4lib > conference info. Those are the kinds of things we want more > confident uptime for. > 2007-08-01T15:24:42 <jrochkind> For things that are risky, you can > keep hosting them on your own server---still with a *.code4lib.org > domain name even (just not www.). > 2007-08-01T15:25:06 * mjgiarlo wonders if chat logs are risky :) > 2007-08-01T15:25:10 <wtd> Wouldn't take long to swing over to > another box hosted elsewhere, in the worst case. > 2007-08-01T15:25:11 <rsinger> mjgiarlo: YES > 2007-08-01T15:25:12 <rordway> http://oregonstate.edu/aup.htm > 2007-08-01T15:25:17 <njvack> Aha: http://oregonstate.edu/aup.htm > 2007-08-01T15:25:18 <jaf> So, let me just repeat: I have no > worries about the content we put on c4l.org being censered > 2007-08-01T15:25:19 <rsinger> that's what i'm getting at > 2007-08-01T15:25:22 <eby> jrochkind: i could see some journal > articles that could cause some heckles with vendors > 2007-08-01T15:25:34 <mjgiarlo> ! oh hai, III is teh sux0r. DOH! > 2007-08-01T15:25:39 <jrochkind> eby: I suppose it's possible. > Violationg of NDA or whatever. > 2007-08-01T15:25:56 <wtd> That's up to the journal to deal with. > 2007-08-01T15:26:01 <jrochkind> eby: If the University wouldn't > stand up for it, we'd move the journal elsewhere. And get lots of > publicity ensuring that the journal's readership would double, in > the process. :) > 2007-08-01T15:26:10 <jbrinley> jrochkind++ > 2007-08-01T15:26:15 <jaf> and I have total confidence in the folks > here working with the community to deal with any issues that crop up > 2007-08-01T15:26:25 <jaf> if that means at some point moving to > another hosting site, that's fine > 2007-08-01T15:26:34 <bradl> I know folks don't seem to like the > idea, but to me, I would think code4lib should form a non-profit > corp, and host the server where-ever it damn well pleases, with > money it makes from donations and the annual conference... just my > opinion > 2007-08-01T15:26:51 <JodiS> bradl: +1 > 2007-08-01T15:26:57 <jaf> bradl: that would be fine > 2007-08-01T15:27:01 <jaf> but we need the site back up > 2007-08-01T15:27:02 <eby> bradl: i think many were for that idea, > none for the paper work > 2007-08-01T15:27:05 <mjgiarlo> rsinger: yeah, maybe chat logs go > elsewhere. (wherever that crappy dilletantes thing goes) > 2007-08-01T15:27:06 <jrochkind> bradl: Nobody wants to do the work > of sysadmining it in a way that will give us some uptime > confidence. I mean, that's basically the current situation, what > you just outlined. > 2007-08-01T15:27:07 * jbrinley wonders if c4lj should sell ad space > 2007-08-01T15:27:12 <jaf> or there will be no conference, becuase > no one will no about it > 2007-08-01T15:27:16 <rordway> as long as we're not hosting > anything *illegal*, at least by Oregon law, or selling viagra, > we're good by the AUP > 2007-08-01T15:27:20 <jdatema> seems to me ibiblio may also be a > natural home--only policy I know about is that content has to be > non-profit > 2007-08-01T15:27:20 <dbs> jbrinley-- > 2007-08-01T15:27:22 <jrochkind> bradl: Money for hardware/ > bandwidth isn't the issue. We are not lacking in that already. > 2007-08-01T15:27:42 <bradl> jrochkind: I don't think we're lacking > in sysadmins around here, either... > 2007-08-01T15:27:54 <jaf> so, can we take a straw vote right now? > 2007-08-01T15:28:01 <bradl> I run around 90 servers. I can commit > to admin'ing 1 more > 2007-08-01T15:28:02 <ksclarke> jdatema: but there has to be a > nonprofit to sign the papers right? > 2007-08-01T15:28:06 <jrochkind> bradl: Are you volunteering to > sysadmin a code4lib server in such a way that we will have as much > uptime confidence as we would at OSU? > 2007-08-01T15:28:08 <dbs> Sorry: jbrinley++ but c4lj_adspace-- > 2007-08-01T15:28:14 <jbrinley> :-) > 2007-08-01T15:28:22 <jrochkind> Cause if you are, that's certainly > worth considering. > 2007-08-01T15:28:25 *** got_a_bean_out is now known as got_a_bean > 2007-08-01T15:28:33 <jaf> I propose a straw vote for/against > currently hosting *.code4lib.org at OSU, understanding that the c4l > community can at any time decide to move the site elsewhere > 2007-08-01T15:28:43 <jdatema> ksclarke: good question—know > librarian.net is hosted there, but it's one person, etc. (you > thinking 403(b)?) > 2007-08-01T15:28:44 <mjgiarlo> +1 to moving ahead on a vote > 2007-08-01T15:28:45 <jaf> sites, that is > 2007-08-01T15:28:47 <rsinger> dbs: what would be so bad about > adspace? > 2007-08-01T15:28:48 <bradl> jrochkind: I think OSU's solution is > fine... I always prefer someone else do the work :) > 2007-08-01T15:28:52 <wtd> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:28:53 <bradl> jaf++ > 2007-08-01T15:28:55 <jrochkind> bradl: My sentiments exactly. > 2007-08-01T15:29:02 <njvack> jaf++ > 2007-08-01T15:29:08 <jrochkind> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:29:08 <rsinger> for the record, i am in agreement > with all this > 2007-08-01T15:29:13 <ksclarke> jdatema: princeton would have given > us space but there had to be a real non-profit that could sign > 2007-08-01T15:29:16 <jbrinley> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:29:22 <rsinger> i would just like to see something > in writing > 2007-08-01T15:29:23 <ksclarke> 403b > 2007-08-01T15:29:38 <jrochkind> I agree with rsinger that we > should be cognizant that University Lawyer Trouble IS a risk. Let > the record show. If it happens, we will take appropriate counter- > measures. > 2007-08-01T15:29:39 <bradl> I think the longer-term solution is a > non-profit, though > 2007-08-01T15:29:45 <dbs> +1 (osu hosts php.net servers, IIRC, and > lord knows _their_ code is offensive!) > 2007-08-01T15:29:46 <jaf> so, let's pause the conversation for the > straw-vote: > 2007-08-01T15:29:48 <jdatema> paul jones@ibiblio (and simon spero > for backchannel information) could answer the non-profit question-- > I'm not sure > 2007-08-01T15:29:49 <jaf> +1 or -1, people > 2007-08-01T15:29:55 * miker_ is a wonder twin and takes the form > of new york, circa 1776 > 2007-08-01T15:29:55 <jbrinley> ksclarke: why are we talking about > variable annuities? > 2007-08-01T15:30:01 <rordway> dbs: sadly > 2007-08-01T15:30:15 <njvack> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:30:17 <wickr> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:30:32 <mjgiarlo> that's six +1s in favor of a vote > 2007-08-01T15:30:32 <jbrinley> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:30:34 <rsinger> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:30:38 <ksclarke> bradl: this is a good question I think > 2007-08-01T15:30:39 <bradl> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:30:42 <rordway> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:30:53 <ksclarke> if we're formal enough for a prod > machine are we for a nonprofit > 2007-08-01T15:30:57 <ksclarke> but yes +1 > 2007-08-01T15:31:06 <Cicer0> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:31:10 <bradl> ksclarke: I don't think the paperwork > is as scary as some think :) > 2007-08-01T15:31:12 <jaf> ksclarke: we may be, but that's another > discussion :-) > 2007-08-01T15:31:15 <dbs> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:31:16 <got_a_bean> pardon me, but OSU as in...? > 2007-08-01T15:31:23 <rordway> Oregon State University > 2007-08-01T15:31:23 <jbrinley> got_a_bean: Oregon > 2007-08-01T15:31:29 <got_a_bean> o.k. > 2007-08-01T15:31:30 <rordway> not Ohio > 2007-08-01T15:31:32 <got_a_bean> +1 > 2007-08-01T15:31:32 <rordway> :-) > 2007-08-01T15:31:41 *** tholbroo has joined #code4lib > 2007-08-01T15:31:44 <ksclarke> if it had been ohio -1 ;-) > 2007-08-01T15:31:48 <miker_> yeah, as long as it's not /Ohio/, > then +1 > 2007-08-01T15:31:49 <mjgiarlo> ksclarke++ > 2007-08-01T15:31:52 * bradl chuckles > 2007-08-01T15:31:52 <zoia> bradl: true, true > 2007-08-01T15:31:54 <rordway> haha > 2007-08-01T15:31:57 <miker_> bah ... beat me to it > 2007-08-01T15:32:06 <wtd> So that's all votes in favour, I think. > 2007-08-01T15:32:06 <jaf> ok, so it's seemingly a concensus > 2007-08-01T15:32:11 <jbrinley> so is anyone actually opposed at > this point? > 2007-08-01T15:32:15 <jaf> but just to do a last check-in, any > objectors? > 2007-08-01T15:32:26 <bradl> we want a shrubbery > 2007-08-01T15:32:32 <jdatema> is libraryfind a company? > 2007-08-01T15:32:37 <njvack> FWIW, I have a friend who recently > set up a nonprofit, and it's certainly do-able. > 2007-08-01T15:32:38 <jaf> jdatema: nope > 2007-08-01T15:32:45 <rordway> does anyone have any questions for > me? or can I mosey? > 2007-08-01T15:32:47 <wtd> So what happens next? > 2007-08-01T15:32:54 <wtd> rordway: Thanks. > 2007-08-01T15:32:55 <jaf> rordway: one sec on that > 2007-08-01T15:32:58 <rordway> k > 2007-08-01T15:32:58 <jbrinley> njvack: setting it up is doable. > Maintaining the accounting is less desirable. > 2007-08-01T15:33:00 <wickr> was there a consensus on where chat > logs go? > 2007-08-01T15:33:03 <mjgiarlo> we just voted on having a vote, > correct, not on moving forward with OSU? > 2007-08-01T15:33:04 <rsinger> rordway: one question > 2007-08-01T15:33:16 <jrochkind> ksclarke: These days it costs $800 > in filing fees for 501-c-3, sadly. It's gone up a lot in the past 5 > years. > 2007-08-01T15:33:18 <jdatema> jaf: thanks > 2007-08-01T15:33:23 <jaf> mjgiarlo: no, we were voting on moving > forward with OSU > 2007-08-01T15:33:26 <njvack> jbrinley: True... but our books can't > be too very complex. > 2007-08-01T15:33:30 <jrochkind> The paperwork is a pain in the > ass, but do-able. > 2007-08-01T15:33:33 <rsinger> rordway: this will live on a xen vm, > right? > 2007-08-01T15:33:42 <rordway> rsinger: that's my current plan, yes > 2007-08-01T15:33:47 <mjgiarlo> jaf: oh. +1 then. > 2007-08-01T15:34:02 <jaf> so, the next step would be for ordway > and ksclarke to work out a migration plan? > 2007-08-01T15:34:07 <rsinger> rordway: would the plan be that > code4lib.org (the thing we replicate elsewhere) will the be > entirety of that vm? > 2007-08-01T15:34:15 <ksclarke> jaf: well edsu has the backups > 2007-08-01T15:34:26 <rordway> if for some reason I decide against > a xen VM, it will be a dedicated system > 2007-08-01T15:34:28 <ksclarke> I'm going to take out the old anvil > drive once I get access to the machine > 2007-08-01T15:34:32 <jrochkind> Then there's probably no reason > that non-OSU code4libbers couldn't have root to the VM machine, yes? > 2007-08-01T15:34:34 <ksclarke> but his should be good > 2007-08-01T15:34:35 <rsinger> rordway: i.e., can we just make a > snapshot of that vm and put it on anvil (or whereever)? > 2007-08-01T15:34:40 <jaf> ksclarke: ok, then rordway, ksclarke, > edsu would start talking about the migration plan > 2007-08-01T15:34:44 <miker_> migration plan: 1) scp tarball to osu > 2) untar > 2007-08-01T15:34:45 <jrochkind> rsinger++ > 2007-08-01T15:34:46 <miker_> ;) > 2007-08-01T15:34:57 <ksclarke> miker++ > 2007-08-01T15:34:59 <jrochkind> I like a nightly snapshot of that > vm backed up to non-OSU location. > 2007-08-01T15:35:23 <miker_> rsinger: if it's a xen vm we can > migrate it to other xen servers at will :) > 2007-08-01T15:35:25 <rordway> jrochkind: sudo would probably be > easiest, but yes > 2007-08-01T15:35:26 <rsinger> of course, that assumes it's a > dedicated vm > 2007-08-01T15:35:34 <jrochkind> [Our new sysadmin (hooray!) plans > to make a lot of use of VMs like that here. I love having a new > sysadmin!] > 2007-08-01T15:35:44 <ksclarke> rsinger: should we do xen on the > new anvil? > 2007-08-01T15:35:45 * miker_ installs xen HV on his home box > 2007-08-01T15:36:05 <wickr> does anyone know if some specific > software was the culprit? do things need to be updated? or if they > are just moved straight over will we have cracking issues again? > 2007-08-01T15:36:11 <jrochkind> Ah, I see in the scrollback that > dedicated system is not assured. That would certainly be preferable > to meet the concerns that were raised. > 2007-08-01T15:36:17 <jrochkind> With a dedicated VM, I think it's > be almost perfect. > 2007-08-01T15:36:21 * ksclarke wonders if ubuntu server does xen > 2007-08-01T15:36:24 <rsinger> ksclarke: well, i don't really know > one way or the other -- but a vm would be an easy way to share the > 'host' > 2007-08-01T15:36:34 <rsinger> ksclarke: yeah, xen is in apt > 2007-08-01T15:36:42 <jaf> ok, how about this as an approach: > 2007-08-01T15:36:54 <miker_> ksclarke: I think it does > 2007-08-01T15:37:24 <ksclarke> hmm > 2007-08-01T15:37:36 <rsinger> also, i don't see any reason why the > logs and whatnot can't just stay on anvil > 2007-08-01T15:37:43 <wtd> Does anyone have dates in mind for when > the server would be back up, when content could get loaded up? > 2007-08-01T15:37:56 <mjgiarlo> logs_on_anvil++ > 2007-08-01T15:38:19 <ksclarke> wtd: I'm being scheduled for > getting my access pass so hopefully this week > 2007-08-01T15:38:21 <jrochkind> If there's anything that someone > has a strong preference to keep on anvil, and the anvil owners get > it back up and allow it, I don't see any reason not to. > 2007-08-01T15:38:37 <jrochkind> Unless there are others involved > who have a strong preference the other way, and then they've got to > duke it out. > 2007-08-01T15:38:37 <ksclarke> but edsu has the logs so c4l could > go up anytime they're transferred to osu > 2007-08-01T15:38:48 <rordway> how about jaf and I work with > ksclarke and edsu on a proposal, once that's ready we can float it > by the group as a whole? > 2007-08-01T15:38:50 <ksclarke> s/logs/c4l backups/ > 2007-08-01T15:39:00 <wtd> Sounds great, rordway. > 2007-08-01T15:39:02 <mjgiarlo> rordway++ > 2007-08-01T15:39:05 <ksclarke> sounds good > 2007-08-01T15:39:06 <jrochkind> rordway++ > 2007-08-01T15:39:08 <jaf> rordway++ > 2007-08-01T15:39:24 <rsinger> yeah, i like that > 2007-08-01T15:39:38 <wtd> I'll put a little update onto the planet > to assuage people's anxieties. > 2007-08-01T15:39:40 <rordway> and FYI, this system would be backed > up nightly > 2007-08-01T15:39:49 <jaf> ok, so, maybe to sum up the decision > points on this discussion: > 2007-08-01T15:39:52 <mjgiarlo> wtd++ :) > 2007-08-01T15:40:10 <rordway> monthly fulls, nightly incrementals > 2007-08-01T15:40:14 <jaf> 1) General agreement that we will go > ahead withan approach for OSU hosting the *.c4l.org site > 2007-08-01T15:40:15 <jrochkind> rordway: The 'backups' I was > talking to actually were 'in case of University Lawyer Trouble'. To > assuage the paranoid that with a flip of a switch we could put the > whole site up on a non-OSU machine, were it ever neccesary. > 2007-08-01T15:40:27 <ksclarke> wtd: i see in my inbox I pick up my > pass tom. so anvil should be up tom. after that > 2007-08-01T15:40:45 <jaf> 2) rordway will take the lead in working > with edsu, myself, and ksclarke on the actual details of a proposal > for moving forward with said hosting > 2007-08-01T15:40:48 <rordway> jrochkind: for those purposes, we > could also do a periodic dump to someplace outside of OSU > 2007-08-01T15:40:54 <jrochkind> rordway++ > 2007-08-01T15:41:04 <jaf> 3) proposal will be then floated to the > c4l community via the discussion list > 2007-08-01T15:41:15 <dbs> jrochkind: Get a Canadian to host a copy > of the backup. Lots of copies keep things safe (from disaster, and > from fickle federal laws). > 2007-08-01T15:41:25 <njvack> BTW, do we know what attack vector > the crackers used? > 2007-08-01T15:41:31 <jrochkind> dbs: Canadian, pah. I'm going to > get an Iraqi to do it. Wait a second, nevermind. > 2007-08-01T15:41:57 <rordway> a remote hot-site on Mars? > 2007-08-01T15:41:57 <ksclarke> njvack: no > 2007-08-01T15:42:13 <gabe> ksclarke: wasn't it drupal? > 2007-08-01T15:42:14 <rordway> is that inter-planetary network up > and running yet? > 2007-08-01T15:42:28 * dbs suspects it was edsu's weak username / > password combo of "edsu" / "edsu" > 2007-08-01T15:42:37 * ksclarke chuckles > 2007-08-01T15:42:37 <zoia> ksclarke: true, true > 2007-08-01T15:42:46 <rordway> haha > 2007-08-01T15:42:50 <ksclarke> gabe, I don't think anyone has > really done any real investigating > 2007-08-01T15:42:54 <njvack> I ask, as I've found things like > Drupal and Wordpress to be much bigger targets than OS vulnerabilities > 2007-08-01T15:43:13 <ksclarke> wp or drupal would be my random off > the cuff guess though > 2007-08-01T15:43:18 *** lbjay has joined #code4lib > 2007-08-01T15:43:21 <gabe> njvack: edsu seemed to think it was drupal > 2007-08-01T15:43:24 <wickr> that's why I was wondering if > something needs to be updated/patched before it's put back up > elsewhere > 2007-08-01T15:43:32 <rsinger> edsu was speculating > 2007-08-01T15:43:52 <njvack> And if it was Drupal that got > hacked... is OSU gonna be keeping *that* patched, or just the Xen > client? > 2007-08-01T15:44:11 <rordway> I'd probably import the data into a > fresh install of the latest drupal > 2007-08-01T15:44:26 <jaf> njvack: these are the kind of details, I > think, that will be put into the proposed proposal > 2007-08-01T15:44:40 <wickr> rordway: that may or may not go > smoothly, def. worth a try though > 2007-08-01T15:44:41 <rordway> njvack: jaf will do it > 2007-08-01T15:45:03 <rsinger> does osu already have drupal > installations? > 2007-08-01T15:45:13 <jaf> rsinger: yeppers > 2007-08-01T15:45:14 <rsinger> or should we consider migrating to > another platform? > 2007-08-01T15:45:15 <rsinger> ah > 2007-08-01T15:45:57 <gabe> +1 on the vote, btw > 2007-08-01T15:45:58 <rordway> we're most likely moving the > library.o.e site to drupal, someday > 2007-08-01T15:46:08 * gabe showed up late and got stuck in scrollback > 2007-08-01T15:46:17 <rordway> and OSL runs drupal, as do some > other groups on campus > 2007-08-01T15:46:20 <ksclarke> migrate! > 2007-08-01T15:46:26 <jrochkind> To what? > 2007-08-01T15:46:39 <ksclarke> abd > 2007-08-01T15:46:39 <rordway> cold fusion! > 2007-08-01T15:46:46 <ksclarke> :-) > 2007-08-01T15:46:47 <rordway> whee! > 2007-08-01T15:46:56 <ksclarke> well, and cold fusion > 2007-08-01T15:47:10 <rordway> maybe even warm fusion > 2007-08-01T15:47:32 <rsinger> cocoon > 2007-08-01T15:47:45 <jaf> gopher > 2007-08-01T15:47:53 <rsinger> gopher on rails > 2007-08-01T15:48:04 <mjgiarlo> OSU++ > 2007-08-01T15:48:04 * jaf smacks rsinger > 2007-08-01T15:48:14 <rordway> gopher on meth > 2007-08-01T15:48:20 * njvack smacks rordway > 2007-08-01T15:48:30 <rordway> it's high performance! > 2007-08-01T15:48:35 <njvack> :) > 2007-08-01T15:48:45 <rsinger> so, we're done? > 2007-08-01T15:48:46 <gabe> if we wanted gopher we'd host at UofM > 2007-08-01T15:49:26 <jaf> rsinger: i believe so, unless there are > any objections? > 2007-08-01T15:49:39 <rordway> I object to gopher > 2007-08-01T15:49:57 <rordway> and the 40 hour work week > 2007-08-01T15:50:01 <gabe> more pointed objections can be raised > on the list > 2007-08-01T15:50:04 <rordway> but I'm ok with everything else > 2007-08-01T15:50:16 <gabe> re: the proposal > 2007-08-01T15:50:21 <jaf> rordway: we can negotiate on the 40-hour > work week, I'll start at 80 :-) > 2007-08-01T15:50:30 <jaf> gabe++ > 2007-08-01T15:50:34 <wtd> Well, good discussion. > 2007-08-01T15:50:41 <rordway> maybe if I get paid for 80 > 2007-08-01T15:50:57 <jaf> rordway: hmmm, maybe in barbeque > 2007-08-01T15:51:05 *** wtd has left #code4lib > 2007-08-01T15:51:28 <rordway> I'd settle for some PC2700 DDR for > my Sun Blade 1500 > 2007-08-01T15:51:53 <jaf> ok, I need to eat. Later folks > 2007-08-01T15:51:56 *** jaf is now known as jaf_lunch > 2007-08-01T15:51:57 <rordway> me too > 2007-08-01T15:52:36 *** mjgiarlo changes topic to "gopher! (Was: > discussion on hosting code4lib.org)"