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Dan convinces me that iBiblio might be better than OSU, in terms of their type of organization. But OSU has made an offer of free supported hosting, under terms that to me seem quite acceptable. Unless iBiblio makes a similar offer under equal or better terms... I still think that an imperfect solution (we all know about what happens when you insist on perfection, right?) is better than the current situation. Dan has in fact articulated quite well what is wrong with the current situation. So Dan and everyone else agrees that it is desirable for the current situation to change. The OSU proposal is the best thing on the table right now for an improvement. If Dan or anyone else wants to spend time on putting together another possibility, that would certainly be welcome. If not, nothing is permanent, we can always change again later (although of course it's a pain and we should not plan on doing such). Jonathan Ross Singer wrote: > Thanks, Dan. This is actually the best argument against an > arrangement outside of organization that explicitly does this sort of > work. > > This much more soundly articulates my concern (I was using university > counsel as an example, but anyone in the chain can potentially disrupt > this entire community for whatever their reason). > > Ed and I actually shared this concern (well, I did and Ed was probably > idle and wasn't disagreeing). We saw something similar recently: > John Blyberg had offered a similar sort of hosting service at AADL. I > asked him about what would happen to said service if, on the odd > chance, he were to leave. He was rather vague about it, but said it > would be the responsibility of his successor. About two weeks later > he announced his resignation and there has been nothing about this > (that I know of) since. Maybe Ryan Eby has more info here. This > isn't a criticism of Blyberg, AADL or good intentions. It's just > reality. And I think it illustrates the point perfectly. > > -Ross. > > On 8/2/07, D Chudnov <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> On 8/2/07, Jeremy Frumkin <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> So, the one point that I don't understand Dan is what you see as the >>> advantage of having c4l hosted at ibiblio is as opposed to OSU? I don't >>> believe there are any technical advantages (we already support most of the >>> current c4l software, such as Drupal and trac, here at OSU, and whatever >>> accounts / access is requested by the c4l community will be available). >>> >>> Let me ask directly – is there a continued concern about having a >>> university donate hosting services? >>> >> Yes, I have a concern about a university hosting arrangement like what >> you've described, though it doesn't have anything to do with OSU or >> you. :) ibiblio is in the business of being a neutral hosting space >> for sites like this (and, yes, they're at a university, but, their >> long-lived project there is long-dedicated to this). Special >> arrangements to host code4lib.org at any particular university through >> the good graces of one or two people like you are just that - special >> arrangements, predicated on a generally favorable situation and the >> kindness of a couple of supportive individuals both in our "community" >> - presumably you and rordway - and at OSU (your boss and >> network/server support staff). >> >> We've all seen many job postings floating by this list, and many of us >> have changed jobs in recent months/years, and even when people don't >> change jobs, the circumstances behind special arrangements change for >> other reasons. A new network guy comes in who doesn't like you, >> somebody else changes a server without caring how it affects your >> thing, a boss wants you to focus more on internal tasks, you lose >> interest yourself - I'm just talking from my own experience here, this >> is just what happens over time. And over time, what you want is a >> host that gets that you're hosting something on a voluntary basis that >> just needs a stable place to live, and is going to honor that your >> collection of stuff, whatever it is, is somehow important enough that >> they're going to go out of their way not to clobber it, or suddenly >> decide that they don't want it anymore. >> >> My experience with ibiblio is that they do that. My experience with >> OSU only indicates that it'd a good place to host stuff too, and I'd >> bet that everybody here would trust you and Ryan to do it right - >> again, that's not my concern. And, obviously, the linux kernel people >> seem to think OSU is a good place to host stuff, among others, so >> that's not a problem either. :) I just think we should take the >> opportunity to move to an organization directly focused on exactly >> what we need from a host. >> >> The other issue that worries me is that at a site like ibiblio, direct >> communications with the hosting provider could be managed through any >> of a number of site admins - unlike with a particular university, >> where if there's a serious issue, it would have to go through the one >> or two code4libbers at that university to get to the server people to >> actually pay attention. >> >> Fwiw, I don't worry at all about the "inappropriate content" issue. >> Everything the www.code4lib.org site is about is utterly appropriate. >> But then again, I don't think that any personal sites, or even trac, >> should be co-located with it, but that's a separate issue I won't >> argue at length about. >> >> (Actually, I'd rather see something like: www.code4lib.org goes to >> ibiblio, trac.code4lib.org goes to OSU, personal blogs stay on anvil >> for those who pay into anvil, or wherever else you want to put them.) >> >> -Dan >> >> >> > > -- Jonathan Rochkind Digital Services Software Engineer The Sheridan Libraries Johns Hopkins University 410.516.8886 rochkind (at) jhu.edu