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Yes, I understand what you're saying, but for this case, leveraging a framework fixes the problem at hand, which is I feel trumps the religious debate. Personally, I am weary of frameworks for many of the reasons you just listened. I think if you are interested in using a particular framework, you should learn the programming language that the framework is written in first. If you plan to use Struts, write a Web app in Java without struts first. If you use Symfony, be fluent in PHP first. As for Rails, I content that there are more people who work in Rails than actually know how to code Ruby, which may be that platform's downfall. But doing CRUD manually in PHP is boring and time consuming, and frequently you're not learning anything. I find it takes 2-10 hours per table, depending on the dependencies. If you aren't really worried about highly specialized interfaces or performance issues, I say, "Get er done!" --- David Cloutman <[log in to unmask]> Electronic Services Librarian Marin County Free Library -----Original Message----- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Spalding Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 8:07 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] what's friendlier & less powerful than phpMyAdmin? This gets religious quickly, but, in my experience, programmers who learn on a framework miss out on their understanding of database necessities. They may not matter much when you have a low-traffic, low-content situation, but as your traffic and data grow you're going to want an understanding of how MySQL optimizes queries, what's expensive and what's not, and so forth. Although anyone can learn anything, experience is the best teacher, and, in my experience, frameworks encourage you to avoid that experience. For example, the Ruby programmers I've worked with have been unaware that MySQL only uses one index per table per select, causing them to index far more than they need, how joins work across different MySQL data types, the advantages of ganging your inserts together, etc. This stuff adds up fast. Of course, the same arguments could be leveled against PHP in favor of C, against C in favor of assembly, etc.. Abstraction always has merits and demerits. Tim On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Cloutman, David <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > This is why most Web applications have to implement CRUD interfaces. PHP is definitely for the uninitiated. > > Along the lines of CodeIgnitor, I would suggest using another framework Symfony. It's a very powerful, yet easy to learn framework, and it will autogenerate the CRUD for you. Really, some framework is probably the way to go for this, regardless of which you choose. > > - David > > -----Original Message----- > From: Code for Libraries on behalf of Ken Irwin > Sent: Wed 7/30/2008 6:35 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: [CODE4LIB] what's friendlier & less powerful than phpMyAdmin? > > Hi folks, > > I have some straightforward MySQL data tables that I would like to be > editable by some of my less-techy colleagues. I tend to think of > phpMyAdmin as a perfectly serviceable and reasonably interface for > updating database tables, but I'm told that it's kind of intimidating to > the uninitiated. > > Are there alternatives that are meant for non-admin-types? I'd want > something with read/write permissions, but that could be targeted at > just a few tables, wouldn't have any of the more potent tools (drop, > empty, etc.). In the ideal world, I might like something that would > prevent users from doing things like accidentally changing primary key > data and things like that. > > I've thought about writing something, but I suspect that would be > reinventing the wheel. Any ideas? > > Thanks, > Ken > > -- > Ken Irwin > Reference Librarian > Thomas Library, Wittenberg University > > > Email Disclaimer: http://www.co.marin.ca.us/nav/misc/EmailDisclaimer.cfm > -- Check out my library at http://www.librarything.com/profile/timspalding