It can be a chicken-egg thing too. Maybe more users would be doing more sophisticated searches if they actually _worked_. Plus I know that I could write systems to use federated search to embed certain functionality in certain places, if more sophisticated searches worked more reliably. Walker, David wrote: > I'm not sure it's a _big_ mess, though, at least for metasearching. > > I was just looking at our metasearch logs this morning, so did a quick count: 93% of the searches were keyword searches. Not a lot of exactness required there. It's mostly in the 7% who are doing more specific searches (author, title, subject) where the bulk if the problems lie, I suspect. > > --Dave > > ================== > David Walker > Library Web Services Manager > California State University > http://xerxes.calstate.edu > ________________________________________ > From: Code for Libraries [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 8:32 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] exact title searches with z39.50 > > Right, Mike. There is a long and rich history of the debate between loose > and strict interpretation, in the world at large, and in particular, within > Z39.50, this debate raged from the late 1980s throughout the 90s. The > faction that said "If you can't give the client what is asks for, at least > give them something; make them happy" was almost religious in its zeal. > Those who said "If you can't give the client what it asks for, be honest > about it; give them good diagnostic information, tell them a better way to > formulate the request, etc. But don't pretend the transaction was a success > if it wasn't" was shouted down most every time. I can't predict, but I'm > just hoping that lessons have been learned from the mess that that mentality > got us into. > > --Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Taylor" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] exact title searches with z39.50 > > > >> Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress writes: >> >>>> The irony is that Z39.50 actually make _much_ more effort to >>>> specify semantics than most other standards -- and yet still >>>> finds itself in the situation where many implementations do not >>>> respond correctly to the BIB-1 attribute 6=3 >>>> (completeness=complete field) which is how Eric should be able to >>>> do what he wants here. >>>> >>>> Not that I have any good answers to this problem ... but I DO >>>> know that inventing more and more replacement standards it NOT >>>> the answer. Everything that's come along since Z39.50 has >>>> suffered from exactly the same problem but more so. >>>> >>> I think this remains to be seen for SRU/CQL, in particular for the >>> example at hand, how to search for exact title. There are two >>> related issues: one, how arcane the standard is, and two, how >>> closely implementations conform to the intended semantics. And >>> clearly the first has a bearing on the second. >>> >>> And even I would say that Z39.50 is a bit on the arcance side when >>> it comes to formulating a query for exact title. With SRU/CQL there >>> is an "exact" relation ('exact' in 1.1, '==' in 1.2). So I would >>> think there is less excuse for a server to apply a creative >>> interpretation. If it cannot support "exact title" it should fail >>> the search. >>> >> IMHO, this is where it breaks down 90% of the time. Servers that >> can't do what they're asked should say "I can't do that", but -- for >> reasons that seem good at the time -- nearly no server fails requests >> that it can "sort of" fulfil. Nine out of ten Z39.50 servers asked to >> do a whole-field search and which can't do it will instead do a word >> search, because "it's better to give the user SOMETHING". I bet the >> same is true of SRU servers. (I am as guilty as anyone else, I've >> written servers like that.) >> >> The idea that "it's better to give the user SOMETHING" might -- might >> -- have been true when we mostly used Z39.50 servers for interactive >> sessions. Now that they are mostly used as targets in metasearching, >> that approach is disastrous. >> >> _/|_ ___________________________________________________________________ >> /o ) \/ Mike Taylor <[log in to unmask]> >> http://www.miketaylor.org.uk >> )_v__/\ "I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days >> attack me at once" -- Ashleigh Brilliant. >> > >