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I generally find that Bing makes better use of RDFa/schema.org than Google does. kc On 5/6/15 7:33 AM, Megan O'Neill Kudzia wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been experimenting with schema.org OpeningHoursSpecification, and > currently Bing is scraping our hours, but Google isn't. I am using > RDFa-lite and I've validated it using a linter (thanks Jason Ronallo!), so > I'm scratching my head as to why our hours *still* don't show up on a > google search. > > I suspect part of it for us might be that we're re-branding away from > Stockwell-Mudd Libraries to Albion College Library, as it's much more > explanatory, but neither search through Google yields a nice box with hours > in it like the SFPL. > > If and when I figure out the problem I'd be happy to send you an update of > what we did and what caused it to finally work properly. > > On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Tom, Google will not tell you. The entirety of how Google search works is >> a trade secret. We don't know the algorithm for ranking, and we don't know >> what information they glean from web pages -- and they are unlikely to >> tell. It is a constant on the schema.org discussion list that developers >> want to know what Google/Bing/Yahoo/Yandex will do with specific >> information in the web pages, and it is a constant that the reps there >> reply: we cannot tell you that. The only way to find out is to code and >> observe. >> >> kc >> >> >> On 5/6/15 7:00 AM, Tom Keays wrote: >> >>> I'd like to find out how and why Google is parsing this information. If >>> you >>> go to the the SFPL hours page (first link in the Google results), and look >>> at the source code, this is all you find. >>> http://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=0100000101 >>> Is the ID in the DIV sufficient? It would be nice to have a set of use >>> cases to work from. >>> >>> Currently, I'm generating a weekly hours box by pulling JSONP from the >>> hours API of LibCal. I could easily output this in schema.org format (and >>> probably will now), but can Google pick up the information from the DOM if >>> it is delivered as JSON and transformed into HTML? >>> >>> <div id="library-hours"> >>> <h2>Hours</h2> >>> <table class="hours" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> >>> <tr> >>> <th>Sun</th> >>> <th>Mon</th> >>> <th>Tue</th> >>> <th class="today">Wed</th> >>> <th>Thu</th> >>> <th>Fri</th> >>> <th>Sat</th> >>> </tr> >>> <tr> >>> <td>12-5</td> >>> <td>10-6</td> >>> <td>9-8</td> >>> <td class="today">9-8</td> >>> <td>9-8</td> >>> <td>12-6</td> >>> <td>10-6</td> >>> </tr> >>> </table> >>> </div> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> Charlie, I don't know of any libraries that have used schema.org for >>>> their web site - perhaps others do. If it is used, it should be "picked >>>> up" >>>> the next time the search engines index the site. What the search engines >>>> do >>>> with schema.org is not guaranteed, but can be observed. It is not >>>> guaranteed because none of the search engines will say what they do, as >>>> that is considered a trade secret (especially from each other). >>>> >>>> However, as locations and hours are important for their commercial >>>> customers (stores, restaurants, etc.) I would expect that to be picked up >>>> as a matter of course. Note that already locations and hours for some >>>> businesses do show in the search engines, and that is for sites that are >>>> not yet using schema.org, so the engines have some way of picking that >>>> up >>>> from the HTML. The Google side-bar "knowledge graph" for my local >>>> libraries >>>> shows " Hours < >>>> >>>> https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&biw=1299&bih=561&q=san+francisco+public+library+larkin+street+hours&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDgzYHnxCXfq6-gVlZhbF5sZZ0drKVfk5-cmJJZn4enGGVkV9aVBzLKeznIsHxlTMy2S10V0iJwvZlMgBPWBDOSAAAAA&ei=qhlKVcKWJ8b7oQS65oCQCA&ved=0CJgBEOgTMBA >>>>> : >>>> Open today · 9:00 am – 8:00 pm <javascript:void(0)> >>>> " but I have no idea where that comes from. >>>> >>>> kc >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/6/15 5:22 AM, Charlie Morris wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm curious, Karen, Ethan or anyone else, do you know of any examples of >>>>> libraries that have implemented schema.org or RDFa for hours data and >>>>> have >>>>> noticed that Google or some other search engine has picked it up (i.e., >>>>> correctly displaying that data as part of the search results)? And if >>>>> so, >>>>> how quickly will Google or the like pickup on changes to hours (i.e., >>>>> shifting between semesters or unplanned changes)? >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Ethan Gruber <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> +1 on the RDFa and schema.org. For those that don't know the library >>>>> URL >>>>> >>>>>> off-hand, it is much easier to find a library website by Googling than >>>>>> it >>>>>> is to go through the central university portal, and the hours will show >>>>>> up >>>>>> at the top of the page after having been harvested by search engines. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Note that library hours is one of the possible bits of information >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>>> could be encoded as RDFa in the library web site, thus making it >>>>>>> possible >>>>>>> to derive library hours directly from the listing of hours on the web >>>>>>> >>>>>>> site >>>>>> rather than keeping a separate list. Schema.org does have the elements >>>>>>> such >>>>>> that hours can be encoded. This would mean that hours could show in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> display of the library's catalog entry on Google, Yahoo and Bing. >>>>>>> Being >>>>>>> available directly through the search engines might be sufficient, not >>>>>>> necessitating creating yet-another-database for that data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Schema.org uses a restaurant as its opening hours example, but much of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>> data would be the same for a library: >>>>>>> <div vocab="http://schema.org/" typeof="Restaurant"> >>>>>>> <span property="name">GreatFood</span> >>>>>>> <div property="aggregateRating" typeof="AggregateRating"> >>>>>>> <span property="ratingValue">4</span> stars - >>>>>>> based on <span property="reviewCount">250</span> reviews >>>>>>> </div> >>>>>>> <div property="address" typeof="PostalAddress"> >>>>>>> <span property="streetAddress">1901 Lemur Ave</span> >>>>>>> <span property="addressLocality">Sunnyvale</span>, >>>>>>> <span property="addressRegion">CA</span> <span >>>>>>> property="postalCode">94086</span> >>>>>>> </div> >>>>>>> <span property="telephone">(408) 714-1489</span> >>>>>>> <a property="url" href="http://www.dishdash.com"> >>>>>>> www.greatfood.com >>>>>>> </a> >>>>>>> Hours: >>>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Sa 11:00-14:30">Mon-Sat >>>>>>> 11am >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>> 2:30pm >>>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Th 17:00-21:30">Mon-Thu >>>>>>> 5pm - >>>>>>> 9:30pm >>>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Fr-Sa 17:00-22:00">Fri-Sat >>>>>>> 5pm - >>>>>>> 10:00pm >>>>>>> Categories: >>>>>>> <span property="servesCuisine"> >>>>>>> Middle Eastern >>>>>>> </span>, >>>>>>> <span property="servesCuisine"> >>>>>>> Mediterranean >>>>>>> </span> >>>>>>> Price Range: <span property="priceRange">$$</span> >>>>>>> Takes Reservations: Yes >>>>>>> </div> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems to me that using schema.org would get more bang for the buck >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> it would get into the search engines and could also be aggregated into >>>>>>> whatever database is needed. As we've seen with OCLC, having a >>>>>>> separate >>>>>>> listing is likely to mean that the data will be out of date. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> kc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/5/15 2:19 PM, nitin arora wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can't see they distinguished between public libraries and other >>>>>>> types >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> their campaign page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They say " all libraries" as far as I can see. >>>>>>>> So I suppose then that this is true for "all libraries": >>>>>>>> "Libraries offer a space anyone can enter, where money isn't >>>>>>>> exchanged, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> documentation doesn't have to be shown." >>>>>>>> Who knew fines and library/student-IDs were a thing of the past? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The only data sets I can find where they got the 17,000 number is for >>>>>>>> public libraries: >>>>>>>> http://www.imls.gov/research/pls_data_files.aspx >>>>>>>> Maybe I missed something. >>>>>>>> There is an hours field on one of the CSVs I downloaded, etc for 2012 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> data >>>>>>> (the most recent I could find). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Asking 10k for something targeted for completion in June and without >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> grasp on what types of libraries there are and how volatile the hours >>>>>>>> information is (especially in crisis) ... >>>>>>>> Sounds naive at best, sketchy at worst. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The "flexible funding" button says "this campaign will receive all >>>>>>>> funds >>>>>>>> raised even if it does not reach its goals". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "The value of these places for youth cannot be underestimated." >>>>>>>> So is the value of a quick buck ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:53 PM, McCanna, Terran < >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not at all surprised that this doesn't already exist, and >>>>>>>> even if >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OCLC's was available, I'd be willing to bet it was out of date. >>>>>>>>> Public library hours, especially in underfunded areas, may fluctuate >>>>>>>>> depending on funding cycles, seasons (whether school is in or out), >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> etc., >>>>>>> not to mention closing/reopening/moving because of old buildings that >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> to be updated. We have around 280 locations in our consortium and we >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>> to rely on self-reporting to find out if their hours change. We >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> certainly >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> don't have staff time to check every one of their web sites on regular >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> basis, I can't imagine keeping track of 17,000! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Terran McCanna >>>>>>>>> PINES Program Manager >>>>>>>>> Georgia Public Library Service >>>>>>>>> 1800 Century Place, Suite 150 >>>>>>>>> Atlanta, GA 30345 >>>>>>>>> 404-235-7138 >>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Peter Murray" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 4:36:56 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Library Hours >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OCLC has an institutional registry [1], which had (in part) library >>>>>>>>> hours, >>>>>>>>> addresses, and so forth. It seems to be unavailable, though [2]. >>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> the only systematic collection of library hours data that I know >>>>>>>>> about. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [1] https://www.oclc.org/worldcat-registry.en.html >>>>>>>>> [2] https://www.worldcat.org/registry/institution/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On May 5, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Bigwood, David < >>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This looks like a decent group, but I find this statement hard to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Your tax-deductible donation supports adding the names, address >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hours of operation of all libraries to Range. The Institute of Museum >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Library Services publishes an open data catalog which is the source >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> we'll >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> use for the names and the addresses of the nation's libraries. >>>>>>> However, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> there isn't a listing of the days and hours of operation for all >>>>>>>>> libraries >>>>>>>>> in the US. We are going to track down the hours of operation for all >>>>>>>>> 17,000 >>>>>>>>> libraries and make that information available -- in Range and for >>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> developers who may want to use it." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/range-food-and-safe-places-for-youth >>>>>> >>>>>> Are the hours of public libraries really not available? >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>> David Bigwood >>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>>> Lunar and Planetary Institute >>>>>>>>>> @LPI_Library >>>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lunarandplanetaryinstitute/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Karen Coyle >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net >>>>>>> m: +1-510-435-8234 >>>>>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>> Karen Coyle >>>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net >>>> m: +1-510-435-8234 >>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 >>>> >>>> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net >> m: +1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 >> > > -- Karen Coyle [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net m: +1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600