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And as you may have guessed, it's already in the works. Voting coming soon from LPC +Program Committee +FCIG. Bohyun > On Jul 24, 2017, at 9:42 PM, Tim McGeary <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > +1. > > And as a past Conference Chair (2014), I am happy to assist in a process or > be a source of information, as needed and appropriate. > > Tim > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:39 PM Matt Sherman <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> I would second (well at this point third) your proposal Andromeda. >> >>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:34 PM, Roy Tennant <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> All for it. Let's call the question, as you have put it so well. Fire up >>> the voting machine! >>> Roy >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Andromeda Yelton < >>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> In my experience on the LITA board (which Code4lib most emphatically is >>>> not), there are sometimes discussions where all the substantive issues >>> have >>>> been put on the table but we have not managed to make a decision, and >>>> eventually I realized that is because unstructured discussion is not a >>>> mechanism for making decisions. In the LITA context, the remedy for >>>> indecisiveness is to *call the question* - to put a motion on the table >>> and >>>> make a vote happen, because votes, unlike discussions, are decisions. >>>> >>>> I believe this discussion has already put the substantive issues on the >>>> table, and Code4lib is failing to reach a decision - the same decision >> it >>>> failed to reach last year - because it lacks a mechanism for calling >> the >>>> question; discussion thus eventually peters out without a mechanism for >>>> closure. Do-ocracy has been, and I hope and expect will continue to >> be, a >>>> fantastic means for Code4lib to produce deliverables - conferences, >>>> journals, discussion spaces, codes of conduct - but those are all >>>> situations where self-nominating do-o-crats speak for the *project*, >> for >>>> the deliverable, and not for the governance of the community as a >> whole. >>> I >>>> don't think any one of us, or even defined group of us, has the >>> legitimacy >>>> to speak for us all in that way. >>>> >>>> So we are...not making decisions about governance because we lack a >>>> governance structure with which to make decisions? >>>> >>>> That said, I have seen an actual decision-making mechanism proposed in >>> this >>>> discussion: fire up the diebold-o-tron and vote on incorporation/do >>>> nothing/fiscal sponsorship (with a second vote, if needed, to choose >>> among >>>> sponsors). This seems like a very *Code4lib* way of doing things. >>> Assuming >>>> we reached some quorum (to put a number on the table, say "70% times >> the >>>> number of posters to the list in the last year"), is there anyone here >>> who >>>> would not find the outcome of that decision to be legitimate? >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Kim, Bohyun <[log in to unmask] >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jonathan is right, Cary. I am on this year's LPC for the next year's >>> C4L >>>>> conference at DC, and we are already working with DLF as a fiscal >>>> sponsor. >>>>> No legal entity status was required. >>>>> >>>>> Bohyun<http://www.hshsl.umaryland.edu/> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of >>> Jonathan >>>>> Rochkind <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 6:18 PM >>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad >>> about >>>>> bylaws?) >>>>> >>>>>> The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want >> enter >>>> into >>>>> an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no >>> "weˇ± >>>> to >>>>> enter into said agreement. >>>>> >>>>> I've said this before and I'll keep saying it, this is not true that >>> you >>>>> need a legal entity to have your project fiscally sponsored by a >> fiscal >>>>> sponsor. I know of many projects (not library related, generally >>>>> 'charitable') which become fiscally sponsored without having any >> legal >>>>> incorporation or other legal entity. The project is legally a project >>> of >>>>> the fiscal sponsor. >>>>> >>>>> It is very common. It is a common way for "charitable" projects to >>> start >>>>> out, without legally incorporating at all, perhaps to legally >>> incorporate >>>>> and separate from the fiscal sponsor at a later date. >>>>> >>>>> If the people we are talking to for fiscal sponsorship are fine with >>>> this, >>>>> it is a common thing. >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This is what the FCIG has been working on. >>>>>> >>>>>> The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want >> enter >>>> into >>>>>> an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no >>>> "weˇ± >>>>> to >>>>>> enter into said agreement. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cary >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 1:03 PM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask] >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, it is great that things have worked out so well for so >> long. >>>> And >>>>>> there is nothing about the process of formalization that requires >> (or >>>> is >>>>>> even intended to bring about) the sidelining of the folks who have >>>> worked >>>>>> so hard to make the Conferences, the Journal and everything else >>> such a >>>>>> success. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, there are over 3300 folks currently subscribed to the >> list >>>> (it >>>>>> is by far the largest list that CLIR hosts), and I'm not sure about >>>>>> Conference attendance, but the FCIG report tells us that "Recent >>> total >>>>>> budgets for the annual Code4Lib conference have exceeded $250,000" >> [ >>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_ >>> Current_Practice >>>> < >>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_ >>> Current_Practice >>>>> ]. >>>>>> Frankly, if there has *ever* been a time when we could somehow >>>> ascertain >>>>>> the consensus of the entire community about "what it wants" in an >>>>> informal >>>>>> way, I would argue that it passed a while ago. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is no need for governance to imply a top-down >> centralization >>>>>> (though formally electing Roy Tennant as God-Emperor and being done >>>> with >>>>> it >>>>>> is certainly an option open to us). Instead, it can be structured >> in >>>> many >>>>>> ways as a formalization of existing practice. There is no >> absolutely >>> no >>>>>> reason that our existing Trustees can't be elected as officers. And >>>> when >>>>>> they want to set their burden down for a bit, the Community can >> elect >>>> new >>>>>> ones. Making this process explicit may be more trouble in some >> ways, >>>> but >>>>>> it's also considerably more democratic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not least, this is a discussion that will likely be forced upon >> us >>> if >>>>> we >>>>>> try to proceed with partnering with a fiscal sponsor for future >>>> meetings. >>>>>> Instead of just randomly copying some bylaws from somewhere, let's >>>> start >>>>>> thinking about how to intentionally adopt a form of governance that >>>>>> preserves the things that we currently like. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Edwin Sperr >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Clinical Information Librarian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AU / UGA Medical Partnership >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> | >> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask] <mailto: >>>>>> [log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Eric Hellman < >>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 12:08:31 PM >>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so >> bad >>>>>> about bylaws?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been pondering about this a fair amount. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think Code4Lib is an "amorphous entity with no systematic >>> way >>>>> of >>>>>> arriving at a decision or definable point of contact". Rather, it >> is >>> a >>>>>> decentralized community with long-established norms and >>> consensus-based >>>>>> procedures for discerning the will of the community. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The community has been able to accomplish a great deal using >>>> volunteers >>>>>> and, for the lack of a better word, trustees. The trustees have >> been >>>>>> largely self-appointed or have responded to community requests. >> These >>>>>> trustees manage assets and capabilities for the benefit of the >>>> community. >>>>>> The asset that has put the largest burden on the part of the >> trustee >>>> has >>>>>> been the annual conference and the corresponding fiscal >> liabilities. >>>>>> Because of the burden of this trusteeship, it has been handed off >>> from >>>>>> trustee to trustee. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it would help if we reframed the discussion away from >>>>>> "formalizing governance of Code4Lib" to "improving the fiscal >>>> continuity >>>>> of >>>>>> a trustee for one (or more) of the Code4Lib community >>>>> assets/liabilities", >>>>>> which I think the fiscal continuity group has advanced >> considerably. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There has been some good work done in developing and documenting >>> the >>>>>> norms and procedures in our community. For example: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://code4lib.org/about <https://code4lib.org/about> >>>>>>> About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about < >>>>> https://code4lib.org/about >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/> >>>>>>> code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a >>>>>> volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects, >>>> curators, >>>>>> catalogers, artists and instigators ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about < >>>>> https://code4lib.org/about >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/> >>>>>>> code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a >>>>>> volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects, >>>> curators, >>>>>> catalogers, artists and instigators ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib < >>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib> < >>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib < >>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/ >>>>>> How_to_hack_code4lib>> >>>>>>> How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki. >>>> code4lib.org/How_to_hack_ >>>>>> code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>> >>>>>>> wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/> >>>>>>> Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The >>>>>> conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool >> available >>> to >>>>>> help you quickly get the feel ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki. >>>> code4lib.org/How_to_hack_ >>>>>> code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>> >>>>>>> wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/> >>>>>>> Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The >>>>>> conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool >> available >>> to >>>>>> help you quickly get the feel ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < >>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5> < >>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < >>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> >>>>>>> [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- >>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p < >> https://lh6 >>> . >>>>>> googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- >>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h >>>>>> ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < >>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m- >>>>>> 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h. >>>>>> 99orczg96qj5 < >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> >>>>>>> docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/> >>>>>>> How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, >>> how >>>>> do >>>>>> we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing >>> things? >>>>> If >>>>>> any, what made you feel like an ˇ°outsiderˇ± at the Code4Lib >> community >>>>> (IRC, >>>>>> Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe >> we >>>>> s... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- >>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p < >> https://lh6 >>> . >>>>>> googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- >>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h >>>>>> ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < >>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m- >>>>>> 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h. >>>>>> 99orczg96qj5 < >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ >>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> >>>>>>> docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/> >>>>>>> How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, >>> how >>>>> do >>>>>> we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing >>> things? >>>>> If >>>>>> any, what made you feel like an ˇ°outsiderˇ± at the Code4Lib >> community >>>>> (IRC, >>>>>> Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe >> we >>>>> s... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/ >>>>>> antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md><htt >>>>>> ps://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/ >>>>>> antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md>> >>>>>>> [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 < >>>>>> https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 >>>> ]<https:// >>>>>> github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>> master/code_of_conduct.md >>>>> < >>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...< >>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>> master/code_of_ >>>>>> conduct.md < >> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>> >>>>>>> github.com <http://github.com/> >>>>>>> antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting >>>> space >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 < >>>>>> https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 >>>> ]<https:// >>>>>> github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>> master/code_of_conduct.md >>>>> < >>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...< >>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>> master/code_of_ >>>>>> conduct.md < >> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ >>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>> >>>>>>> github.com <http://github.com/> >>>>>>> antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting >>>> space >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It may be useful to further document Code4lib's consensus-based >>>>>> procedures and policies for the benefit of legal entities that need >>> to >>>>> work >>>>>> with us, but a formal governance structure for the community (as >>>> opposed >>>>> to >>>>>> that of an asset trustee) is something that I don't think the >>> community >>>>>> needs or wants. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I think the notion that we're indebted to "dumb luck" >> forgets >>>>> that >>>>>> "luck" is created by a lot of hard work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Eric >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 11:01 AM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR < >> [log in to unmask] >>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is true that the Community has held 12 annual conferences >>> without >>>>>> formalization. And yes, it is likely *possible* to continue with >> the >>>>>> current model of every conference being essentially a separate >>> entity, >>>>> and >>>>>> support from the larger community being on an ad-hoc basis. But the >>>>> reason >>>>>> we are having this discussion is that this is not a particularly >> good >>>>>> option -- it depends not only on good will, but (as Coral has >> noted) >>>> dumb >>>>>> luck as well. It also means more stress and effort on the part of >>> each >>>>>> year's organizers than necessary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, if we *do* form a relationship with another entity (or >>>>>> self-incorporate), some person or persons will sign an agreement >> that >>>>> binds >>>>>> us, however you define "us", to a course of action that will likely >>>> span >>>>>> several conferences. This is indeed a significantly different type >> of >>>>>> decision than has come before, and it requires a different way of >>> doing >>>>>> business. Everybody has had a bad experience or two with >> bureaucracy, >>>> but >>>>>> the current approach of trying to maintain Code4Lib as an amorphous >>>>> entity >>>>>> with no systematic way of arriving at a decision or definable point >>> of >>>>>> contact has real and tangible drawbacks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So, in the spirit of the current way of doing things, I propose >>> the >>>>>> formation of an ad-hoc, self-nominated committee (perhaps the last >> of >>>> its >>>>>> kind) to investigate a formal governance structure for Code4Lib and >>>> then >>>>>> assist the Community with its implementation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you're interested in joining me, please contact me off-list: >>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:35:13 -0400 >>>>>>>>> From: Adam Constabaris <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: What's so bad about bylaws? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's an interesting question, but code4lib -- whatever exactly >>> that >>>>> is >>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> has managed to make all sorts of decisions, about where to hold >>>>>>>>> conferences, keynote speakers, etc. for over a decade without >>>>>> formalizing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am unclear on the exact details, but there is some carryover >> of >>>>>>>>> conference funds from year to year and if I had to guess -- and >>>> this >>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>> guess -- it relies on the good will of the previous year's >> fiscal >>>>>> sponsor(s) >>>>>>>>> transferring the funds to the upcoming year's fiscal >> sponsor(s). >>>>>> However >>>>>>>>> exactly that process works, it's happened multiple times at the >>>>>> direction >>>>>>>>> of the community; each time, though, different parties are >>>> involved. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The F*C*IG is attempting to address (among other things) the >>>>>> tenuousness of >>>>>>>>> that arrangement, and they've identified a number of proposals >>> that >>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>> to yield enough formal organization to ensure continuity. The >>>>>>>>> decision doesn't strike me as more momentous or different in >> kind >>>>> from >>>>>> the ones code4lib has >>>>>>>>> made in the past, and shouldn't require any new mechanisms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ed Sperr >>>>>>>> Clinical Information Librarian >>>>>>>> AU/UGA Medical Partnership >>>>>>>> Athens, GA >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] | [log in to unmask] >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Andromeda Yelton >>>> Senior Software Engineer, MIT Libraries: https://libraries.mit.edu/ >>>> President, Library & Information Technology Association: >>>> http://www.lita.org >>>> http://andromedayelton.com >>>> @ThatAndromeda <http://twitter.com/ThatAndromeda> >>>> >>> >> > -- > Tim McGeary > [log in to unmask] > GTalk/Yahoo/Skype/Twitter: timmcgeary > 484-294-7660 (Google Voice)