+1 and thank you to the "doers!"
Tim
On 7/24/17, 10:02 PM, "Code for Libraries on behalf of Kim, Bohyun" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of [log in to unmask]> wrote:
And as you may have guessed, it's already in the works. Voting coming soon from LPC +Program Committee +FCIG.
Bohyun
> On Jul 24, 2017, at 9:42 PM, Tim McGeary <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> +1.
>
> And as a past Conference Chair (2014), I am happy to assist in a process or
> be a source of information, as needed and appropriate.
>
> Tim
>
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:39 PM Matt Sherman <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> I would second (well at this point third) your proposal Andromeda.
>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:34 PM, Roy Tennant <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> All for it. Let's call the question, as you have put it so well. Fire up
>>> the voting machine!
>>> Roy
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Andromeda Yelton <
>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my experience on the LITA board (which Code4lib most emphatically is
>>>> not), there are sometimes discussions where all the substantive issues
>>> have
>>>> been put on the table but we have not managed to make a decision, and
>>>> eventually I realized that is because unstructured discussion is not a
>>>> mechanism for making decisions. In the LITA context, the remedy for
>>>> indecisiveness is to *call the question* - to put a motion on the table
>>> and
>>>> make a vote happen, because votes, unlike discussions, are decisions.
>>>>
>>>> I believe this discussion has already put the substantive issues on the
>>>> table, and Code4lib is failing to reach a decision - the same decision
>> it
>>>> failed to reach last year - because it lacks a mechanism for calling
>> the
>>>> question; discussion thus eventually peters out without a mechanism for
>>>> closure. Do-ocracy has been, and I hope and expect will continue to
>> be, a
>>>> fantastic means for Code4lib to produce deliverables - conferences,
>>>> journals, discussion spaces, codes of conduct - but those are all
>>>> situations where self-nominating do-o-crats speak for the *project*,
>> for
>>>> the deliverable, and not for the governance of the community as a
>> whole.
>>> I
>>>> don't think any one of us, or even defined group of us, has the
>>> legitimacy
>>>> to speak for us all in that way.
>>>>
>>>> So we are...not making decisions about governance because we lack a
>>>> governance structure with which to make decisions?
>>>>
>>>> That said, I have seen an actual decision-making mechanism proposed in
>>> this
>>>> discussion: fire up the diebold-o-tron and vote on incorporation/do
>>>> nothing/fiscal sponsorship (with a second vote, if needed, to choose
>>> among
>>>> sponsors). This seems like a very *Code4lib* way of doing things.
>>> Assuming
>>>> we reached some quorum (to put a number on the table, say "70% times
>> the
>>>> number of posters to the list in the last year"), is there anyone here
>>> who
>>>> would not find the outcome of that decision to be legitimate?
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Kim, Bohyun <[log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jonathan is right, Cary. I am on this year's LPC for the next year's
>>> C4L
>>>>> conference at DC, and we are already working with DLF as a fiscal
>>>> sponsor.
>>>>> No legal entity status was required.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bohyun<http://www.hshsl.umaryland.edu/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of
>>> Jonathan
>>>>> Rochkind <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 6:18 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad
>>> about
>>>>> bylaws?)
>>>>>
>>>>>> The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want
>> enter
>>>> into
>>>>> an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no
>>> "we”
>>>> to
>>>>> enter into said agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've said this before and I'll keep saying it, this is not true that
>>> you
>>>>> need a legal entity to have your project fiscally sponsored by a
>> fiscal
>>>>> sponsor. I know of many projects (not library related, generally
>>>>> 'charitable') which become fiscally sponsored without having any
>> legal
>>>>> incorporation or other legal entity. The project is legally a project
>>> of
>>>>> the fiscal sponsor.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is very common. It is a common way for "charitable" projects to
>>> start
>>>>> out, without legally incorporating at all, perhaps to legally
>>> incorporate
>>>>> and separate from the fiscal sponsor at a later date.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the people we are talking to for fiscal sponsorship are fine with
>>>> this,
>>>>> it is a common thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is what the FCIG has been working on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want
>> enter
>>>> into
>>>>>> an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no
>>>> "we”
>>>>> to
>>>>>> enter into said agreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 1:03 PM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again, it is great that things have worked out so well for so
>> long.
>>>> And
>>>>>> there is nothing about the process of formalization that requires
>> (or
>>>> is
>>>>>> even intended to bring about) the sidelining of the folks who have
>>>> worked
>>>>>> so hard to make the Conferences, the Journal and everything else
>>> such a
>>>>>> success.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, there are over 3300 folks currently subscribed to the
>> list
>>>> (it
>>>>>> is by far the largest list that CLIR hosts), and I'm not sure about
>>>>>> Conference attendance, but the FCIG report tells us that "Recent
>>> total
>>>>>> budgets for the annual Code4Lib conference have exceeded $250,000"
>> [
>>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_
>>> Current_Practice
>>>> <
>>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_
>>> Current_Practice
>>>>> ].
>>>>>> Frankly, if there has *ever* been a time when we could somehow
>>>> ascertain
>>>>>> the consensus of the entire community about "what it wants" in an
>>>>> informal
>>>>>> way, I would argue that it passed a while ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no need for governance to imply a top-down
>> centralization
>>>>>> (though formally electing Roy Tennant as God-Emperor and being done
>>>> with
>>>>> it
>>>>>> is certainly an option open to us). Instead, it can be structured
>> in
>>>> many
>>>>>> ways as a formalization of existing practice. There is no
>> absolutely
>>> no
>>>>>> reason that our existing Trustees can't be elected as officers. And
>>>> when
>>>>>> they want to set their burden down for a bit, the Community can
>> elect
>>>> new
>>>>>> ones. Making this process explicit may be more trouble in some
>> ways,
>>>> but
>>>>>> it's also considerably more democratic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not least, this is a discussion that will likely be forced upon
>> us
>>> if
>>>>> we
>>>>>> try to proceed with partnering with a fiscal sponsor for future
>>>> meetings.
>>>>>> Instead of just randomly copying some bylaws from somewhere, let's
>>>> start
>>>>>> thinking about how to intentionally adopt a form of governance that
>>>>>> preserves the things that we currently like.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edwin Sperr
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clinical Information Librarian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AU / UGA Medical Partnership
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> |
>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Eric Hellman <
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 12:08:31 PM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so
>> bad
>>>>>> about bylaws?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been pondering about this a fair amount.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think Code4Lib is an "amorphous entity with no systematic
>>> way
>>>>> of
>>>>>> arriving at a decision or definable point of contact". Rather, it
>> is
>>> a
>>>>>> decentralized community with long-established norms and
>>> consensus-based
>>>>>> procedures for discerning the will of the community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The community has been able to accomplish a great deal using
>>>> volunteers
>>>>>> and, for the lack of a better word, trustees. The trustees have
>> been
>>>>>> largely self-appointed or have responded to community requests.
>> These
>>>>>> trustees manage assets and capabilities for the benefit of the
>>>> community.
>>>>>> The asset that has put the largest burden on the part of the
>> trustee
>>>> has
>>>>>> been the annual conference and the corresponding fiscal
>> liabilities.
>>>>>> Because of the burden of this trusteeship, it has been handed off
>>> from
>>>>>> trustee to trustee.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it would help if we reframed the discussion away from
>>>>>> "formalizing governance of Code4Lib" to "improving the fiscal
>>>> continuity
>>>>> of
>>>>>> a trustee for one (or more) of the Code4Lib community
>>>>> assets/liabilities",
>>>>>> which I think the fiscal continuity group has advanced
>> considerably.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has been some good work done in developing and documenting
>>> the
>>>>>> norms and procedures in our community. For example:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://code4lib.org/about <https://code4lib.org/about>
>>>>>>> About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about <
>>>>> https://code4lib.org/about
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/>
>>>>>>> code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a
>>>>>> volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects,
>>>> curators,
>>>>>> catalogers, artists and instigators ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about <
>>>>> https://code4lib.org/about
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/>
>>>>>>> code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a
>>>>>> volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects,
>>>> curators,
>>>>>> catalogers, artists and instigators ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib <
>>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib> <
>>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib <
>>>>> https://wiki.code4lib.org/
>>>>>> How_to_hack_code4lib>>
>>>>>>> How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki.
>>>> code4lib.org/How_to_hack_
>>>>>> code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>>
>>>>>>> wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/>
>>>>>>> Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The
>>>>>> conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool
>> available
>>> to
>>>>>> help you quickly get the feel ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki.
>>>> code4lib.org/How_to_hack_
>>>>>> code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>>
>>>>>>> wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/>
>>>>>>> Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The
>>>>>> conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool
>> available
>>> to
>>>>>> help you quickly get the feel ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5> <
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
>>>>>>> [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
>>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <
>> https://lh6
>>> .
>>>>>> googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
>>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h
>>>>>> ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-
>>>>>> 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.
>>>>>> 99orczg96qj5 <
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
>>>>>>> docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/>
>>>>>>> How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or,
>>> how
>>>>> do
>>>>>> we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing
>>> things?
>>>>> If
>>>>>> any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib
>> community
>>>>> (IRC,
>>>>>> Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe
>> we
>>>>> s...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
>>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <
>> https://lh6
>>> .
>>>>>> googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
>>>>>> 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h
>>>>>> ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-
>>>>>> 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.
>>>>>> 99orczg96qj5 <
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
>>>>>> YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
>>>>>>> docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/>
>>>>>>> How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or,
>>> how
>>>>> do
>>>>>> we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing
>>> things?
>>>>> If
>>>>>> any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib
>> community
>>>>> (IRC,
>>>>>> Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe
>> we
>>>>> s...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/
>>>>>> antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md><htt
>>>>>> ps://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/
>>>>>> antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md>>
>>>>>>> [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 <
>>>>>> https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400
>>>> ]<https://
>>>>>> github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md
>>>>> <
>>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...<
>>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>> master/code_of_
>>>>>> conduct.md <
>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>>
>>>>>>> github.com <http://github.com/>
>>>>>>> antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting
>>>> space
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 <
>>>>>> https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400
>>>> ]<https://
>>>>>> github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md
>>>>> <
>>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...<
>>>>>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>> master/code_of_
>>>>>> conduct.md <
>> https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
>>>>>> master/code_of_conduct.md>>
>>>>>>> github.com <http://github.com/>
>>>>>>> antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting
>>>> space
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may be useful to further document Code4lib's consensus-based
>>>>>> procedures and policies for the benefit of legal entities that need
>>> to
>>>>> work
>>>>>> with us, but a formal governance structure for the community (as
>>>> opposed
>>>>> to
>>>>>> that of an asset trustee) is something that I don't think the
>>> community
>>>>>> needs or wants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, I think the notion that we're indebted to "dumb luck"
>> forgets
>>>>> that
>>>>>> "luck" is created by a lot of hard work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 11:01 AM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <
>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is true that the Community has held 12 annual conferences
>>> without
>>>>>> formalization. And yes, it is likely *possible* to continue with
>> the
>>>>>> current model of every conference being essentially a separate
>>> entity,
>>>>> and
>>>>>> support from the larger community being on an ad-hoc basis. But the
>>>>> reason
>>>>>> we are having this discussion is that this is not a particularly
>> good
>>>>>> option -- it depends not only on good will, but (as Coral has
>> noted)
>>>> dumb
>>>>>> luck as well. It also means more stress and effort on the part of
>>> each
>>>>>> year's organizers than necessary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, if we *do* form a relationship with another entity (or
>>>>>> self-incorporate), some person or persons will sign an agreement
>> that
>>>>> binds
>>>>>> us, however you define "us", to a course of action that will likely
>>>> span
>>>>>> several conferences. This is indeed a significantly different type
>> of
>>>>>> decision than has come before, and it requires a different way of
>>> doing
>>>>>> business. Everybody has had a bad experience or two with
>> bureaucracy,
>>>> but
>>>>>> the current approach of trying to maintain Code4Lib as an amorphous
>>>>> entity
>>>>>> with no systematic way of arriving at a decision or definable point
>>> of
>>>>>> contact has real and tangible drawbacks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, in the spirit of the current way of doing things, I propose
>>> the
>>>>>> formation of an ad-hoc, self-nominated committee (perhaps the last
>> of
>>>> its
>>>>>> kind) to investigate a formal governance structure for Code4Lib and
>>>> then
>>>>>> assist the Community with its implementation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you're interested in joining me, please contact me off-list:
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:35:13 -0400
>>>>>>>>> From: Adam Constabaris <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: What's so bad about bylaws?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's an interesting question, but code4lib -- whatever exactly
>>> that
>>>>> is
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> has managed to make all sorts of decisions, about where to hold
>>>>>>>>> conferences, keynote speakers, etc. for over a decade without
>>>>>> formalizing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am unclear on the exact details, but there is some carryover
>> of
>>>>>>>>> conference funds from year to year and if I had to guess -- and
>>>> this
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>> guess -- it relies on the good will of the previous year's
>> fiscal
>>>>>> sponsor(s)
>>>>>>>>> transferring the funds to the upcoming year's fiscal
>> sponsor(s).
>>>>>> However
>>>>>>>>> exactly that process works, it's happened multiple times at the
>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>>>> of the community; each time, though, different parties are
>>>> involved.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The F*C*IG is attempting to address (among other things) the
>>>>>> tenuousness of
>>>>>>>>> that arrangement, and they've identified a number of proposals
>>> that
>>>>>> appear
>>>>>>>>> to yield enough formal organization to ensure continuity. The
>>>>>>>>> decision doesn't strike me as more momentous or different in
>> kind
>>>>> from
>>>>>> the ones code4lib has
>>>>>>>>> made in the past, and shouldn't require any new mechanisms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ed Sperr
>>>>>>>> Clinical Information Librarian
>>>>>>>> AU/UGA Medical Partnership
>>>>>>>> Athens, GA
>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] | [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Andromeda Yelton
>>>> Senior Software Engineer, MIT Libraries: https://libraries.mit.edu/
>>>> President, Library & Information Technology Association:
>>>> http://www.lita.org
>>>> http://andromedayelton.com
>>>> @ThatAndromeda <http://twitter.com/ThatAndromeda>
>>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> Tim McGeary
> [log in to unmask]
> GTalk/Yahoo/Skype/Twitter: timmcgeary
> 484-294-7660 (Google Voice)
