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Hi all, Two other groups to consider in regards to requiring credit cards for checking out material: 1. Teenagers, many of whom won't have credit cards 2. Muslims - It's my understanding that some Muslims will not use credit cards due to them being considered to be forbidden by Islamic law Also, many years ago I was helping some friends who were being evicted. I found some library books amongst the things they were leaving behind and returned them, as returning library books was low on their list of priorities at that time. Fines and ransomware wouldn't have done anything to encourage them to return the items, they would just stop using the library entirely. Best, Matthew Murray (he/they) Data and Graduate Studies Librarian British Columbia Institute of Technology Work Hours: Monday-Thursday, 9:00am-5:00pm e: [log in to unmask] p: 604-432-8764 ORCID: 0000-0001-5799-8471 The British Columbia Institute of Technology acknowledges that our campuses are located on the unceded traditional territories of the Coast Salish Nations of Sḵwx̱wú7mesh (Squamish), səl̓ilwətaɁɬ (Tsleil-Waututh), and xwməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2023 22:24:01 +0000 From: Anne Slaughter <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal I completely agree with Natasha’s excellent response and points made by others, and am glad that your library is having thorough conversations about this before rolling anything out. As a former public librarian and longtime public employee, I understand how challenging it is to responsibly and transparently allocate limited resources to tools and services that truly address the needs in your community and facilitate meaningful digital inclusion. If you’re looking at collecting credit card or other sensitive personal or financial information – what exactly would you then be doing with that information, and how long would you keep it on file? Would it even be useful in a loss scenario? What unintended consequences might arise? From the IT budgeting perspective, IMO the cost of doing business involves accepting and anticipating the inevitability of some loss or damage, and having procedures for responding to it compassionately that don’t unintentionally compromise the equity of access to services by assigning moral values or restrictions based on socioeconomic status to higher-value items in the collection. Anyone, regardless of socioeconomic status, could lose or damage an item, but not everyone can easily absorb the impact of the consequences for it. The scale here is admittedly a bit different than late fees for traditional print or AV materials, but if you look at the data around libraries going fine-free, there are considerable overhead administrative costs and intangible costs for applying financial consequences to patrons that ultimately end in no one coming out “ahead.” Finally, I echo the suggestion to look at grant opportunities. There are currently historic levels of funding being appropriated at the federal and state levels to support not just expansion of broadband availability, but meaningful adoption of technology, with support for digital inclusion concepts and tactics like device lending programs baked in to the overall strategies. With the caveat that there can be a lot of process and administrative red tape involved with securing and using said funding, there may be opportunities out there for your library to use grant funding for this, especially if you can partner with other libraries, municipalities, or other agencies supporting this type of work. The National Digital Inclusion Alliance (https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.digitalinclusion.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xxLs6ulajfZAWNRn6AOhRTQ9d34pqUOVOFR9NI%2BWpJU%3D&reserved=0) or New York state’s ConnectALL initiative (https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbroadband.ny.gov%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0n724nIIrh%2BuJEbPnRNmmqm7o4g7bEFmgRVs4CIajys%3D&reserved=0) might be useful to you. Anne Slaughter Director of Technology Services Reaching Across Illinois Library System Burr Ridge Office Phone: 630-734-5127 Fax: 630.734.5050 [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.railslibraries.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Jwgqh7yFlbAUSAsvnl0aq3z71kTLkJ7rgjT7isbjPdk%3D&reserved=0 From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Natasha Allen Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 2:11 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] A Modest Proposal Respectfully, I also agree with your colleague that it's not best to assume what a person, regardless of their housing situation, uses an item for. As you say, those who check out items like these may not even have a credit card and requiring one would, more likely than not, put an additional hardship on the folks most likely to take out higher value items. Even folks who are housed frequently have issues with their credit. I agree with Lena and others, it sounds like some conversations should be had with patrons and possibly their support networks, if possible, to discover why items are not being returned. As they mention above, being unhoused opens one up to any number of hardships, including theft, violence, mental and physical health, and exposure to natural elements, not to mention lack of transportation and other forms of support that can lead to a device not being returned. Many times this isn't the person's fault but they end up getting punished for it in the end, which continues the frustrating cycle that many folks find themselves in. I can certainly empathize with your position of wanting the items to be returned so other people can use them, and it's difficult to be put in the position of social worker while handling situations like these, especially when you didn't ask for it. I have been a public library employee for many years in the past, and it is certainly exhausting work. Personally, I try to lean toward assuming people's best intentions and having conversations with them vs. more "punishment" based options like ransomware or sending them to collections. And ultimately your library will need to figure out how much loss it can take on a yearly basis since there will always be instances beyond people's control that lead to a loss. Perhaps seeing if there's a way shoulder the burden by applying for grants or utilizing other areas of funding to cover the losses while you're figuring out ways to prevent them from going missing could be another way forward. I appreciate you reaching out and asking the community about it and I am glad that your library is working on more equitable approaches to lending items. I hope you are able to find a workable solution for the issues you're facing. Natasha -- *Natasha Allen * *(She/Her)* Library Services Platform Specialist University of Michigan On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 1:10 PM Lolis, John <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > Thank you so much to all for your thoughtful replies. It has certainly > prompted quite a discussion (sometimes philosophical) among my > colleagues, and we'll be keeping them in mind as we go on. It appears > that, at the very least, additional outreach in some way, shape or > form is needed, especially at the local shelter here in town. > > Here the question has expanded beyond the issue of unreturned laptops > because we're also considering a library of things circulation program > in which there may be some high priced items included. One contentious > issue has to do with possibly requiring a credit card number on record > in case of loss, damage or theft. Of course, we don't require a credit > card when checking out a laptop, as we recognize that most who need a > laptop are unlikely to have a credit card. But what if we were to loan > out a $500 360 degree camera? I may be pig-headed, but I see no reason > why we couldn't require a credit card for something like that; > however, the question of fairness was raised, that we shouldn't > presume that an impoverished or homeless person *wouldn't* need a 360 > degree camera, and therefore we shouldn't require a credit card for > such things as well. In an ideal world I'd agree, but I think that practicality here demands otherwise. > > Getting back to the laptops, my solution would be to have them do a > non-stop Rick Roll > <https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww > .youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdQw4w9WgXcQ&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%4 > 0BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b179 > 33e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoi > MC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7 > C%7C&sdata=6IEo2LJLJdVC4NfeA2V3ZzT83s5gK1HK28470UFJXRg%3D&reserved=0<h > ttps://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.y > outube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DdQw4w9WgXcQ&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40B > CIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933 > e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC > 4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C% > 7C&sdata=6IEo2LJLJdVC4NfeA2V3ZzT83s5gK1HK28470UFJXRg%3D&reserved=0>> > after the due date. Then again, the words, "Never gonna give you > up..." are not what we want the patron to think in this case. ;-} > > Best wishes to all! > > John Lolis > Coordinator of Computer Systems > > 100 Martine Avenue > White Plains, NY 10601 > > tel: 1.914.422.1497 > fax: 1.914.422.1452 > > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhit > eplainslibrary.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af > 2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0% > 7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQI > joiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FunhKI > qOcbEb%2FruasRhPUpEPcpxQMA9%2BOC7k7rbPeN4%3D&reserved=0<https://can01. > safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhiteplainslibrary > .org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c > 08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125 > 932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJ > BTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FunhKIqOcbEb%2FruasR > hPUpEPcpxQMA9%2BOC7k7rbPeN4%3D&reserved=0> > > *“I would rather have questions that can’t be answered than answers > that can’t be questioned.”* — Richard Feynman < > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fclic > k.fourhourmail.com%2F5qure95xkf7hvvo93wh2%2F7qh7h8h05vr4zrtz%2FaHR0cHM > 6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvUmljaGFyZF9GZXlubWFu&data=05%7C01%7Cm > atthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0 > a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb > GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0 > %3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KSnyrEywSe1696b0O71SexQ5yekFObBblgrc%2Fuyb0F > o%3D&reserved=0<https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ht > tps%3A%2F%2Fclick.fourhourmail.com%2F5qure95xkf7hvvo93wh2%2F7qh7h8h05v > r4zrtz%2FaHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvUmljaGFyZF9GZXlubWFu& > data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be4 > 77c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7 > CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1 > haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KSnyrEywSe1696b0O71SexQ5yekF > ObBblgrc%2Fuyb0Fo%3D&reserved=0> > >, > theoretical physicist and recipient of the Nobel Prize in Physics in > 1965 > > > On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 at 11:56, Lena G. Bohman > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > wrote: > > > You aren't going to like this answer, because it's very boring, but > > I think you can't know if this would work without knowing *why* > > people aren't returning laptops. I'm not a public librarian, but my > > mom was an academic who spent her career working with a very poor > > population of domestic violence victims, and I was often pressed > > into service as an ad hoc research assistant. One of the things I > > learned from the experience > was > > that people who are on the edge have very chaotic lives. Even if > > they intend to return the laptop, they may not. > > > > I think you need to learn more about the population you are trying > > to address. Alternate explanations: > > > > 1. People checking out the laptops tend to be transient and move out > > of the area with short notice. Possible intervention: include a > > return envelope with prepaid postage. > > 2. People are selling the laptops to make quick money. Possible > > intervention: talk to local pawn shop owners about returning the > laptops > > when they come into circulation. > > 3. People in shelters struggle with transportation to return the > > laptops. Possible intervention: talk to shelter workers about having > them > > help to hold laptops at end of circulation period until they can be > picked > > up. > > > > I don't think any of these issues would be solved by a ransomware > > like > you > > mention. But I think you need more data to decide what to do. > > Probably > that > > means talking to people who already work with your local homeless > community > > (if, indeed, homeless patrons are the source of most missing laptops > > -- > you > > probably want to run some sort of analysis to figure this out), and, > > if > you > > can find the time to do so, interviewing patrons. > > Lena > > > > Lena Bohman > > Data and Research Impact Librarian > > Long Island Jewish - Forest Hills Liaison Donald and Barbara Zucker > > School of Medicine at Hofstra/Northwell > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Code for Libraries > > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf > > of Lolis, John > > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *Sent:* Monday, February 6, 2023 11:30 AM > > *To:* [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > *Subject:* [CODE4LIB] A Modest Proposal > > > > EXTERNAL MESSAGE > > > > (apologies to Jonathan Swift) > > > > Please take this as only half-joking. While it is eminently do-able, > > the question is would it be ethical? Other than stirring things up > > on a > Monday > > morning, I'd also love to hear alternative solutions others have > > brought > to > > bear on this problem. > > > > We circulate laptops bundled with hotspots, and as expected we've > > seen > too > > many of them fail to return. Of course, we disable the hotspot when > > it fails to return, but that doesn't always result in the return of > > the bundle. What makes matters worse is that in the spirit of > > combating digital inequity, we do our best to accommodate those who > > are homeless, > who > > have no permanent address other than a shelter, who have no > > cellphone and have no credit card. > > > > Other than Scalefusion MDM software which we're evaluating, I had a > > wonderful, deliciously evil thought: suppose, upon checkout, we > > started a clock ticking on the laptop. Three days after the due > > date, our very own branded ransomware kicks in. The patron sees a > > message: to recover your files, return the laptop. It'd be like a > > prisoner exchange; they return the laptop and we return their files. > > Of course, this only works with those who actually create data files that they value. > > > > So who's in on this (he asks tongue in cheek)? > > > > John Lolis > > Coordinator of Computer Systems > > > > 100 Martine Avenue > > White Plains, NY 10601 > > > > tel: 1.914.422.1497 > > fax: 1.914.422.1452 > > > > > > > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhit > eplainslibrary.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af > 2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0% > 7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQI > joiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FunhKI > qOcbEb%2FruasRhPUpEPcpxQMA9%2BOC7k7rbPeN4%3D&reserved=0<https://can01. > safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwhiteplainslibrary > .org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c > 08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125 > 932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJ > BTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FunhKIqOcbEb%2FruasR > hPUpEPcpxQMA9%2BOC7k7rbPeN4%3D&reserved=0> > > > > *“I would rather have questions that can’t be answered than answers > > that can’t be questioned.”* — Richard Feynman < > > > https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fclic > k.fourhourmail.com%2F5qure95xkf7hvvo93wh2%2F7qh7h8h05vr4zrtz%2FaHR0cHM > 6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvUmljaGFyZF9GZXlubWFu&data=05%7C01%7Cm > atthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be477c2%7C8322cefd0 > a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb > GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0 > %3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KSnyrEywSe1696b0O71SexQ5yekFObBblgrc%2Fuyb0F > o%3D&reserved=0<https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ht > tps%3A%2F%2Fclick.fourhourmail.com%2F5qure95xkf7hvvo93wh2%2F7qh7h8h05v > r4zrtz%2FaHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvUmljaGFyZF9GZXlubWFu& > data=05%7C01%7Cmatthew_murray%40BCIT.CA%7C0469af2c0db94048d11c08db0be4 > 77c2%7C8322cefd0a4c4e2cbde5b17933e7b00f%7C0%7C0%7C638116848125932037%7 > CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1 > haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KSnyrEywSe1696b0O71SexQ5yekF > ObBblgrc%2Fuyb0Fo%3D&reserved=0> > > >, > > theoretical physicist and recipient of the Nobel Prize in Physics in > > 1965 > > **** CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Hofstra University. > Do > > not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender > > and know the content is safe. **** > > > ------------------------------ End of CODE4LIB Digest - 9 Feb 2023 to 10 Feb 2023 (#2023-34) *************************************************************