Okay, no objections, and it's afternoon in Philly, so here it is. I
think the following snippet pretty much covers yesterday's discussion.
I don't think anyone said anything too incriminating. Please excuse my
out-of-place Helen Thomas incrementing. Oh, and, mjgiarlo, I hope you
didn't mean for that exclamation point to be real.
2007-08-01T14:57:53 *** jaf changes topic to "discussion on hosting code4lib.org"
2007-08-01T14:58:03 <ksclarke> the time has come, eh?
2007-08-01T14:58:09 <jaf> in a minute, yes :)
2007-08-01T14:58:28 <wtd> Attention! Attention! Discussion beginning soon.
2007-08-01T14:58:35 <jaf> ok, the time is upon us
2007-08-01T14:58:36 <dbs> wtd: Sigh. Check my blog post.
2007-08-01T14:58:37 <wtd> Everyone load up their channel loggers.
2007-08-01T14:59:00 <jaf> roll call, please: let's make sure folks are active
2007-08-01T14:59:02 <jaf> I'm here
2007-08-01T14:59:05 <ksclarke> here
2007-08-01T14:59:12 <rsinger> tom servo!
2007-08-01T14:59:12 <jbrinley> moo
2007-08-01T14:59:14 <jrochkind> I'm observing.
2007-08-01T14:59:16 <rsinger> croooooooooooooooooooow!
2007-08-01T14:59:25 <wtd> I'm here. I have an account on anvil (no root) and host a Rails site on it.
2007-08-01T14:59:33 <ksclarke> edsu back yet?
2007-08-01T14:59:40 <wickr> I'm observing
2007-08-01T14:59:43 <wtd> anvil.lisforge.net, that is, the box that got hacked.
2007-08-01T14:59:49 <jbrinley> .seen edsu
2007-08-01T14:59:49 <zoia> jbrinley: edsu was last seen in #code4lib 4 hours, 18 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <edsu> like the librarything guys talk, and others
2007-08-01T15:00:09 <jaf> my local clock says 11:59, so let's wait another minute or so
2007-08-01T15:00:17 <ksclarke> sounds good
2007-08-01T15:00:20 <wickr> edsu said he might be able to pop in for a bit, and he might not
2007-08-01T15:00:35 <rsinger> plus, these are library types-- we need to give the customary 5 minutes
2007-08-01T15:00:38 * rordway is here
2007-08-01T15:00:43 <ksclarke> rsinger++
2007-08-01T15:00:56 <jaf> ok, well, we probably should begin the discussion
2007-08-01T15:00:57 <rordway> according to my Mac, it's now 12:00
2007-08-01T15:01:06 <jaf> the proposal on the table, as I understand it, is thus:
2007-08-01T15:01:18 <jaf> move the production version of code4lib.org over to a server here at OSU
2007-08-01T15:01:25 *** rob_desk has joined #code4lib
2007-08-01T15:01:30 <jaf> use anvil as a development enivornment
2007-08-01T15:01:41 <jaf> and set up policies for admin support and access of code4lib.org
2007-08-01T15:01:51 <wtd> Is that *.code4lib.org? journal, planet, etc?
2007-08-01T15:02:02 <jaf> wtd: yes, *.code4lib.org
2007-08-01T15:02:06 <rsinger> hrm
2007-08-01T15:02:12 <rsinger> dilettantes?
2007-08-01T15:02:15 <jaf> so, currently we are talking www, planet, and journal
2007-08-01T15:02:16 *** tholbroo has quit IRC
2007-08-01T15:02:29 <rsinger> jaf: there's more -- svn
2007-08-01T15:02:35 <jaf> ok, and svn :)
2007-08-01T15:02:37 <ksclarke> and trac
2007-08-01T15:02:38 <jaf> and trac
2007-08-01T15:02:39 <rsinger> trac?
2007-08-01T15:02:40 <rsinger> yeah
2007-08-01T15:02:46 <jrochkind> ++
2007-08-01T15:02:52 <wtd> There are about, what, ten other more or less production sites hosted on the box?
2007-08-01T15:03:01 <jaf> wtd: what are those?
2007-08-01T15:03:05 <jrochkind> Will OSU donate this service? Does this include sysadmin staffing, or just hardware/network, or what?
2007-08-01T15:03:17 <ksclarke> wtd, what, code4lib things or other people's things?
2007-08-01T15:03:17 <rordway> [a-zA-Z+].code4lib? :-)
2007-08-01T15:03:38 <ksclarke> we're only talking code4lib stuff I believe
2007-08-01T15:03:43 <wtd> Ah, OK.
2007-08-01T15:03:46 <jaf> jrochkind: we are donating the server space, bandwith, and will support the software running on the box in terms of security and uptime
2007-08-01T15:03:52 <jrochkind> Awesome.
2007-08-01T15:03:59 <wtd> So this is a sort of formalization and Oregon State adoption of code4lib.org as an online presence.
2007-08-01T15:04:06 <ksclarke> osu++
2007-08-01T15:04:08 <jaf> but we'd also like some commitment from the community for helping with the general admin of the software
2007-08-01T15:04:12 <rsinger> hmm
2007-08-01T15:04:17 <rsinger> i'm still not sure about this
2007-08-01T15:04:18 <jaf> wtd: no
2007-08-01T15:04:31 <ksclarke> so how will you manage letting people have the privs for that help, jaf?
2007-08-01T15:04:33 <jbrinley> jaf: commitment of what sort?
2007-08-01T15:04:37 <rsinger> 1) my online presence is in the code4lib.org domain
2007-08-01T15:04:49 <jaf> in other words, we're not going to set policies on / about code4lib.org
2007-08-01T15:04:52 <bradl> jaf: sounds like you have it handled :)
2007-08-01T15:05:01 <jaf> we're going to commit to a level of support to assure uptime
2007-08-01T15:05:09 <ksclarke> yeah, rsinger, yours is the exception (personal in the domain)
2007-08-01T15:05:12 <jaf> but other than that, it's still the community that controls c4l.org
2007-08-01T15:05:15 <rsinger> 2) what if, say, osu counsel (or anyone in the chain) objected to something in the code4lib.org domain and wanted it to be taken down?
2007-08-01T15:05:18 <jrochkind> We would want to make sure that OSU disclaims any ownership of any 'intellectual property' on *.code4lib.org. If minds are changed later, we want no legal barriers to moving it somewhere else.
2007-08-01T15:05:43 <jaf> rsinger, jrochkind: no problems there. We claim no copyright / ownership of the content
2007-08-01T15:06:01 <ksclarke> and not even any osu branding right jaf?
2007-08-01T15:06:07 <wtd> OSU providing free hosting, bandwidth, and tech support, and having no say over any content or administration, sounds pretty damn useful.
2007-08-01T15:06:08 <rsinger> jaf: is that actually feasible? i mean, legally?
2007-08-01T15:06:12 <jaf> rsinger: yes
2007-08-01T15:06:13 <ksclarke> but do you have policies for the type of material that you all can host?
2007-08-01T15:06:14 <rsinger> isn't osu liable at some point?
2007-08-01T15:06:15 <jaf> ksclarke: yes
2007-08-01T15:06:29 <jrochkind> Also, that the DNS were set up so things running on the current anvil can still run at [various].code4lib.org . So if you prefer to run a code4lib domained service not on OSU, you still could.
2007-08-01T15:06:30 <rordway> jaf is liable :-)
2007-08-01T15:06:31 <jaf> rsinger: are you going to make us liable for something? ;-)
2007-08-01T15:06:43 <rsinger> don't i always?
2007-08-01T15:07:00 <ksclarke> jrochkind, that would be nec. for rsinger's dila...
2007-08-01T15:07:05 <jaf> as long as truly illegal stuff doesn't happen on c4l.org, we should be fine
2007-08-01T15:07:08 <jrochkind> That's what I'm thinking.
2007-08-01T15:07:16 <jaf> i.e. no pr0n, illegal filesharing, etc.
2007-08-01T15:07:23 <rsinger> jaf: i guess i'm trying to make sure that all our t's are crossed and whatnot
2007-08-01T15:07:36 <jrochkind> anvil is still available for hosting *.code4lib.org, so long as it's owners want to keep making it available. But things that we want to be uptime-guaranteed, we can put on the OSU server.
2007-08-01T15:07:39 <ksclarke> jaf: after all illegal filesharing is why we have anvil
2007-08-01T15:07:41 <jaf> rsinger: you cross your t's? Sounds like an a-type personality to me.....
2007-08-01T15:07:43 <rordway> ksclarke: we have policies for what we can host, but I don't think there is anything that would be of conflict
2007-08-01T15:07:44 <ksclarke> just joking
2007-08-01T15:08:07 <rsinger> jaf: the advantage to it having lived in neutral territory thus far is that the issue of governance hasn't been an issue
2007-08-01T15:08:15 <jrochkind> If OSU gives us problems---the content on the OSU server can always be moved away. (Although of course that would be a pain in the ass nobody would look forward to).
2007-08-01T15:08:17 <jaf> so, another thing: Domain ownership is still with edsu
2007-08-01T15:08:32 <rsinger> jaf: since none of the owners of the machine have cared to interfere
2007-08-01T15:08:35 <rsinger> (obviously)
2007-08-01T15:08:39 <jaf> so, yes, following up on jrochkind, if problems arise, things can be copied and pointed elsewhere
2007-08-01T15:08:40 <wtd> This is the equivalent of code4lib.org getting an unused office and a phone line and doing whatever it wants, basically.
2007-08-01T15:08:50 <jaf> wtd: yes
2007-08-01T15:08:59 * ksclarke chuckles
2007-08-01T15:08:59 <zoia> ksclarke: true, true
2007-08-01T15:09:12 <rsinger> wtd: i guess i'm just skeptical that there are no strings attached with that deal
2007-08-01T15:09:17 <jrochkind> wtd: And OSU pays for the utilities, and for the plumber who needs to come biweekly for our leaky plumbing.
2007-08-01T15:09:32 <jaf> rsinger: so, what strings are you specifically worried about?
2007-08-01T15:09:38 <rsinger> or that somebody won't come in eventually to explain that the strings have always been there
2007-08-01T15:09:38 <ksclarke> jaf: I'm curious who will have login access to the box
2007-08-01T15:09:38 <jrochkind> Would a written contract make you feel better? Would OSU be willing to sign such? (Who would they sign it WITH, I don't know).
2007-08-01T15:10:04 <eby> finally around
2007-08-01T15:10:17 <jrochkind> As long as our content doesn't get held hostage, the worst case doesn't seem that bad to me. As long as the content can be moved elsewhere if strings do appear.
2007-08-01T15:10:20 <jaf> ksclarke: I think that's part of the discussion here. That's for the folks in the c4l community to decide, and Mr. Ordway to say, "that's doable"
2007-08-01T15:10:22 <ksclarke> not a having a who to sign it with is why it's not at princeton (which I thought about at one point)
2007-08-01T15:10:28 <rsinger> jaf: again, it comes down to governance -- government entities tend to be far more conservative about the sorts of services they host
2007-08-01T15:10:51 <jaf> rsinger: this is oregon, dude.
2007-08-01T15:10:54 <jaf> :)
2007-08-01T15:10:57 <ksclarke> rsinger: well any service can still be hosted from anvil if one of the box people want
2007-08-01T15:10:58 <rordway> haha
2007-08-01T15:11:00 *** caroldotou has quit IRC
2007-08-01T15:11:14 <mjgiarlo> "let's settle this over a case of PBR"
2007-08-01T15:11:20 <jaf> so, OSU has some precident here through the open source lab hosting for a variety of projects
2007-08-01T15:11:24 <rsinger> jaf: that may be, but i bet you're university lawyers are as chickenshit as any other university lawyers
2007-08-01T15:11:38 <rsinger> s/you're/your/
2007-08-01T15:11:44 <rordway> the only caveat that I'm aware of on our side is Network Engineering/IS has to approve of the hosting of the "domain", not even necessarily the content
2007-08-01T15:11:45 <eby> what's osu's policy on responding to complaints
2007-08-01T15:11:58 <jaf> eby: what type of complaints?
2007-08-01T15:12:01 <eby> inform, shutoff, delete?
2007-08-01T15:12:04 *** danja has quit IRC
2007-08-01T15:12:06 <eby> content or legal
2007-08-01T15:12:07 <rsinger> eby: that's more what i'm getting, i guess
2007-08-01T15:12:14 <ksclarke> rordway will this be on its own box or a shared machine?
2007-08-01T15:12:17 <jaf> i haven't had much experience on such
2007-08-01T15:12:30 <jaf> we've had some issues with pr0n being placed on our wiki via spammers
2007-08-01T15:12:39 <jaf> but those were handled directly
2007-08-01T15:13:03 <rordway> ksclarke: probably an isolated Xen guest
2007-08-01T15:13:05 <jaf> i imagine if a complaint were to occur, our network services would contact my boss, who would inform me
2007-08-01T15:13:11 <rordway> so effectively it would be dedicated
2007-08-01T15:13:28 <jaf> so, basically, at that point, it would be my roll to deal with whatever situation would occur
2007-08-01T15:13:47 <ksclarke> how many people are you comfortable with having access to the machine? is there a number?
2007-08-01T15:14:03 <rordway> and yes, usually NET gets a complaint, they usually forward it along to my group, Library Technology, and we handle it
2007-08-01T15:14:05 <jaf> but truly, are we anticipating some sort of content that would cause this?
2007-08-01T15:14:20 <ksclarke> and is there a way to decide who those people are? /me wonders aloud
2007-08-01T15:14:39 <rsinger> jaf: i think we need to to cover our asses
2007-08-01T15:14:43 <wtd> ksclarke: Wouldn't you start with who has codelib.org-related access to anvil, and grow from there?
2007-08-01T15:14:45 <eby> jaf: i don't expect directly but with a semi-open drupal it could come up indirectly
2007-08-01T15:14:48 <jaf> i mean, if I'm understanding what eby and rsinger are bringing up, is this the equivilant of a takedown notice brought on by something like the DMCA?
2007-08-01T15:15:03 <rsinger> or libel
2007-08-01T15:15:44 *** caroldotou has joined #code4lib
2007-08-01T15:15:47 <jaf> so, one benefit of having this at a public academic institution is that it's probably more difficult to have abuse of takedown notices via DMCA then at a normal ISP
2007-08-01T15:16:01 <ksclarke> wtd: not all the folks on anvil have any c4l leanings so I think that list would just be eby, me, edsu, you, rsinger
2007-08-01T15:16:26 <ksclarke> am I forgetting anyone? I don't think credding or dfox have any desire to
2007-08-01T15:16:32 <wtd> Good enough to start with.
2007-08-01T15:16:33 <jaf> and we (OSU) have to deal with this on our wiki, with blogs, etc. so this issue wouldn't be particular to c4l.org
2007-08-01T15:16:52 <jrochkind> We could, from the start, set up some kind of mirroring routine to mirror OSU content to anvil. So with the flip of a DNS entry, it could be switched back to anvil.
2007-08-01T15:16:56 <jbrinley> wtd, ksclarke: I would like to request some sort of access for the journal, but it's not absolutely necessary
2007-08-01T15:16:59 <jrochkind> But that would take someone to work on setting that up. Not me.
2007-08-01T15:17:09 <ksclarke> jaf, but having access at the wiki level is a bit different than machine level
2007-08-01T15:17:18 <wtd> Given codelib.org's growth over the past n years, and foreseeable future, it sounds like it's just strange edge conditions that are the concern here.
2007-08-01T15:17:19 <jaf> jrochkind: I believe that the journal would be fine to be hosted on the production server
2007-08-01T15:17:49 <jrochkind> jaf: I assumed so. I really want a more uptime-confident host for the journal.
2007-08-01T15:17:58 <ksclarke> jrochkind: yeah, mirroring sounds good... I've had other offers as spots to mirror c4l too so we'd have multiple redundancy
2007-08-01T15:17:59 <jaf> ksclarke: true, but I'm trying to address rsinger's and eby's concerns. Command-line access is another issue to decide
2007-08-01T15:18:10 <jbrinley> jaf: I'm meaning access to load files, WP templates, etc., for admining the journal website.
2007-08-01T15:18:10 <rordway> ksclarke: oh, actually that would be a pair of Xen guests behind our foundry serveriron
2007-08-01T15:18:13 <wtd> Would the box fit into any existing OSU service level agreements?
2007-08-01T15:18:28 <ksclarke> osu --> anvil + others
2007-08-01T15:18:48 <jrochkind> jaf: Yeah, we'd need command line access (although not root, of course) for many of these services, I think. To provide the software management you want us to provide. Otherwise it'll be way too much work for your admins responding to our requests.
2007-08-01T15:18:56 <jbrinley> jaf: right now I give files to eby and eby uploads them for me
2007-08-01T15:19:07 <eby> wtd: i think the community tends to be open and there might be concerns by others about their freedom to express. It doesn't really bother me
2007-08-01T15:19:09 <ksclarke> jbrinley, yeah you should have machine access I think
2007-08-01T15:19:24 <ksclarke> on the prod
2007-08-01T15:19:32 <jaf> jrochkind, jbrinley: right, these are details that can be worked out, I think. The policies wouldn't be decided by OSU, but by us, the c4l community
2007-08-01T15:19:51 <jbrinley> jaf: good point. A discussion for another day.
2007-08-01T15:20:04 <eby> jaf: are you still with innovative
2007-08-01T15:20:06 <njvack> jaf: There must be a University-wide network use policy at OSU...? We'd probably need to follow that.
2007-08-01T15:20:07 <wtd> About the root question, OSU would have root access, but just use it for adminning, and others would have root as decided?
2007-08-01T15:20:07 <jrochkind> As long as it's clear that we will not have constraints we do not want from OSU.
2007-08-01T15:20:15 <jaf> what I would recommend, putting my c4l hat on, is that we set up policies that help us keep c4l.org secure and up and running
2007-08-01T15:20:15 <gabe> helen_thomas++
2007-08-01T15:20:22 <jrochkind> jaf insists we will not. rsinger is not entirely convinced.
2007-08-01T15:20:50 <jaf> eby: yes, we are still with innovative. please don't hold it against us :-)
2007-08-01T15:21:11 <ksclarke> jaf: policies, heh, now see that's why this will never work on anvil ;-)
2007-08-01T15:21:20 <jrochkind> To me, it's cost-benefit. I agree with rsinger that is a risk of OSU attaching strings at a later date. I think it's worth the risk, especially if we from the start have a game plan as to what we'll do in that case (move the stuff away if neccesary) and how (by setting up mirroring to make it easy, etc.).
2007-08-01T15:21:20 <rordway> the only time that OSU would have to step in is if something within the site were violating the university AUP, which the only time that would happen I would imagine would be if the system were somehow compromised and was hosting pr0n or warez
2007-08-01T15:21:24 <jaf> njvack: I don't have any such policy immediately handy, but as I've stated, there is precident here at OSU for hosting these types of sites
2007-08-01T15:21:30 <gabe> oops, sorry for the interruption -- /me reads scrollback
2007-08-01T15:21:40 <ksclarke> I'm for using osu as production as long as we aren't tied in in anyway and can always do what we want in the future
2007-08-01T15:21:59 <jaf> ksclarke: yes, I think that's key. There is an exit policy if folks aren't happy with us hosting the site
2007-08-01T15:22:02 <rordway> and the way that is usually handled is usually fairly informal. NET contacts Library Technology (me and others), and we remove the offending content
2007-08-01T15:22:10 <jrochkind> rordway: Or cataloging records that some Big Library claims are their IP? Same as warez to the university lawyers. But I say, okay, so we put THOSE on anvil not at OSU.
2007-08-01T15:22:26 <ksclarke> and as jrochkind says we have the redundant servers in place to make that easy
2007-08-01T15:22:31 <rsinger> hrm
2007-08-01T15:22:32 <rordway> right
2007-08-01T15:22:45 <wtd> +1 from me too, "as long as we aren't tied in any way and can always do what we want," as ksclarke put it.
2007-08-01T15:22:46 <jaf> So, I think the key here is that as long as we keep the agreement with OSU informal, we have a lot of flexibility and can make this work easily
2007-08-01T15:22:48 <rsinger> rordway: but who decides 'offending content'?
2007-08-01T15:23:13 <wtd> What jaf and rordway sketch out sounds appealing.
2007-08-01T15:23:16 <jrochkind> jaf: As long as you are still at OSU, anyway, I think the risk is low. But you won't be there forever.
2007-08-01T15:23:19 <eby> rsinger: innovative calling their director?
2007-08-01T15:23:27 <rsinger> eby: that's what i'm getting at
2007-08-01T15:23:33 <jaf> jrochkind: is anything forever? ;-)
2007-08-01T15:23:53 <jrochkind> Despite what jaf and rordway say, I think we should realize there is indeed some risk of University Lawyers. I just think it's worth it, especially if we have a game plan for dealing with it.
2007-08-01T15:23:55 *** Cicer0 has joined #code4lib
2007-08-01T15:23:58 * rordway is looking for the AUP
2007-08-01T15:24:04 <jaf> so, trust me on this, III has no influence on what we say or do
2007-08-01T15:24:04 <rsinger> my point is that 'threat of litigation' is generally enough to make university lawyers buckle
2007-08-01T15:24:16 <jaf> I mean, has anyone seen any of reeset's presentations? ;-)
2007-08-01T15:24:22 <jrochkind> The university lawyers are unlikely to object to journal.code4lib.org, or with code4lib conference info. Those are the kinds of things we want more confident uptime for.
2007-08-01T15:24:42 <jrochkind> For things that are risky, you can keep hosting them on your own server---still with a *.code4lib.org domain name even (just not www.).
2007-08-01T15:25:06 * mjgiarlo wonders if chat logs are risky :)
2007-08-01T15:25:10 <wtd> Wouldn't take long to swing over to another box hosted elsewhere, in the worst case.
2007-08-01T15:25:11 <rsinger> mjgiarlo: YES
2007-08-01T15:25:12 <rordway> http://oregonstate.edu/aup.htm
2007-08-01T15:25:17 <njvack> Aha: http://oregonstate.edu/aup.htm
2007-08-01T15:25:18 <jaf> So, let me just repeat: I have no worries about the content we put on c4l.org being censered
2007-08-01T15:25:19 <rsinger> that's what i'm getting at
2007-08-01T15:25:22 <eby> jrochkind: i could see some journal articles that could cause some heckles with vendors
2007-08-01T15:25:34 <mjgiarlo> ! oh hai, III is teh sux0r. DOH!
2007-08-01T15:25:39 <jrochkind> eby: I suppose it's possible. Violationg of NDA or whatever.
2007-08-01T15:25:56 <wtd> That's up to the journal to deal with.
2007-08-01T15:26:01 <jrochkind> eby: If the University wouldn't stand up for it, we'd move the journal elsewhere. And get lots of publicity ensuring that the journal's readership would double, in the process. :)
2007-08-01T15:26:10 <jbrinley> jrochkind++
2007-08-01T15:26:15 <jaf> and I have total confidence in the folks here working with the community to deal with any issues that crop up
2007-08-01T15:26:25 <jaf> if that means at some point moving to another hosting site, that's fine
2007-08-01T15:26:34 <bradl> I know folks don't seem to like the idea, but to me, I would think code4lib should form a non-profit corp, and host the server where-ever it damn well pleases, with money it makes from donations and the annual conference... just my opinion
2007-08-01T15:26:51 <JodiS> bradl: +1
2007-08-01T15:26:57 <jaf> bradl: that would be fine
2007-08-01T15:27:01 <jaf> but we need the site back up
2007-08-01T15:27:02 <eby> bradl: i think many were for that idea, none for the paper work
2007-08-01T15:27:05 <mjgiarlo> rsinger: yeah, maybe chat logs go elsewhere. (wherever that crappy dilletantes thing goes)
2007-08-01T15:27:06 <jrochkind> bradl: Nobody wants to do the work of sysadmining it in a way that will give us some uptime confidence. I mean, that's basically the current situation, what you just outlined.
2007-08-01T15:27:07 * jbrinley wonders if c4lj should sell ad space
2007-08-01T15:27:12 <jaf> or there will be no conference, becuase no one will no about it
2007-08-01T15:27:16 <rordway> as long as we're not hosting anything *illegal*, at least by Oregon law, or selling viagra, we're good by the AUP
2007-08-01T15:27:20 <jdatema> seems to me ibiblio may also be a natural home--only policy I know about is that content has to be non-profit
2007-08-01T15:27:20 <dbs> jbrinley--
2007-08-01T15:27:22 <jrochkind> bradl: Money for hardware/bandwidth isn't the issue. We are not lacking in that already.
2007-08-01T15:27:42 <bradl> jrochkind: I don't think we're lacking in sysadmins around here, either...
2007-08-01T15:27:54 <jaf> so, can we take a straw vote right now?
2007-08-01T15:28:01 <bradl> I run around 90 servers. I can commit to admin'ing 1 more
2007-08-01T15:28:02 <ksclarke> jdatema: but there has to be a nonprofit to sign the papers right?
2007-08-01T15:28:06 <jrochkind> bradl: Are you volunteering to sysadmin a code4lib server in such a way that we will have as much uptime confidence as we would at OSU?
2007-08-01T15:28:08 <dbs> Sorry: jbrinley++ but c4lj_adspace--
2007-08-01T15:28:14 <jbrinley> :-)
2007-08-01T15:28:22 <jrochkind> Cause if you are, that's certainly worth considering.
2007-08-01T15:28:25 *** got_a_bean_out is now known as got_a_bean
2007-08-01T15:28:33 <jaf> I propose a straw vote for/against currently hosting *.code4lib.org at OSU, understanding that the c4l community can at any time decide to move the site elsewhere
2007-08-01T15:28:43 <jdatema> ksclarke: good question—know librarian.net is hosted there, but it's one person, etc. (you thinking 403(b)?)
2007-08-01T15:28:44 <mjgiarlo> +1 to moving ahead on a vote
2007-08-01T15:28:45 <jaf> sites, that is
2007-08-01T15:28:47 <rsinger> dbs: what would be so bad about adspace?
2007-08-01T15:28:48 <bradl> jrochkind: I think OSU's solution is fine... I always prefer someone else do the work :)
2007-08-01T15:28:52 <wtd> +1
2007-08-01T15:28:53 <bradl> jaf++
2007-08-01T15:28:55 <jrochkind> bradl: My sentiments exactly.
2007-08-01T15:29:02 <njvack> jaf++
2007-08-01T15:29:08 <jrochkind> +1
2007-08-01T15:29:08 <rsinger> for the record, i am in agreement with all this
2007-08-01T15:29:13 <ksclarke> jdatema: princeton would have given us space but there had to be a real non-profit that could sign
2007-08-01T15:29:16 <jbrinley> +1
2007-08-01T15:29:22 <rsinger> i would just like to see something in writing
2007-08-01T15:29:23 <ksclarke> 403b
2007-08-01T15:29:38 <jrochkind> I agree with rsinger that we should be cognizant that University Lawyer Trouble IS a risk. Let the record show. If it happens, we will take appropriate counter-measures.
2007-08-01T15:29:39 <bradl> I think the longer-term solution is a non-profit, though
2007-08-01T15:29:45 <dbs> +1 (osu hosts php.net servers, IIRC, and lord knows _their_ code is offensive!)
2007-08-01T15:29:46 <jaf> so, let's pause the conversation for the straw-vote:
2007-08-01T15:29:48 <jdatema> paul jones@ibiblio (and simon spero for backchannel information) could answer the non-profit question--I'm not sure
2007-08-01T15:29:49 <jaf> +1 or -1, people
2007-08-01T15:29:55 * miker_ is a wonder twin and takes the form of new york, circa 1776
2007-08-01T15:29:55 <jbrinley> ksclarke: why are we talking about variable annuities?
2007-08-01T15:30:01 <rordway> dbs: sadly
2007-08-01T15:30:15 <njvack> +1
2007-08-01T15:30:17 <wickr> +1
2007-08-01T15:30:32 <mjgiarlo> that's six +1s in favor of a vote
2007-08-01T15:30:32 <jbrinley> +1
2007-08-01T15:30:34 <rsinger> +1
2007-08-01T15:30:38 <ksclarke> bradl: this is a good question I think
2007-08-01T15:30:39 <bradl> +1
2007-08-01T15:30:42 <rordway> +1
2007-08-01T15:30:53 <ksclarke> if we're formal enough for a prod machine are we for a nonprofit
2007-08-01T15:30:57 <ksclarke> but yes +1
2007-08-01T15:31:06 <Cicer0> +1
2007-08-01T15:31:10 <bradl> ksclarke: I don't think the paperwork is as scary as some think :)
2007-08-01T15:31:12 <jaf> ksclarke: we may be, but that's another discussion :-)
2007-08-01T15:31:15 <dbs> +1
2007-08-01T15:31:16 <got_a_bean> pardon me, but OSU as in...?
2007-08-01T15:31:23 <rordway> Oregon State University
2007-08-01T15:31:23 <jbrinley> got_a_bean: Oregon
2007-08-01T15:31:29 <got_a_bean> o.k.
2007-08-01T15:31:30 <rordway> not Ohio
2007-08-01T15:31:32 <got_a_bean> +1
2007-08-01T15:31:32 <rordway> :-)
2007-08-01T15:31:41 *** tholbroo has joined #code4lib
2007-08-01T15:31:44 <ksclarke> if it had been ohio -1 ;-)
2007-08-01T15:31:48 <miker_> yeah, as long as it's not /Ohio/, then +1
2007-08-01T15:31:49 <mjgiarlo> ksclarke++
2007-08-01T15:31:52 * bradl chuckles
2007-08-01T15:31:52 <zoia> bradl: true, true
2007-08-01T15:31:54 <rordway> haha
2007-08-01T15:31:57 <miker_> bah ... beat me to it
2007-08-01T15:32:06 <wtd> So that's all votes in favour, I think.
2007-08-01T15:32:06 <jaf> ok, so it's seemingly a concensus
2007-08-01T15:32:11 <jbrinley> so is anyone actually opposed at this point?
2007-08-01T15:32:15 <jaf> but just to do a last check-in, any objectors?
2007-08-01T15:32:26 <bradl> we want a shrubbery
2007-08-01T15:32:32 <jdatema> is libraryfind a company?
2007-08-01T15:32:37 <njvack> FWIW, I have a friend who recently set up a nonprofit, and it's certainly do-able.
2007-08-01T15:32:38 <jaf> jdatema: nope
2007-08-01T15:32:45 <rordway> does anyone have any questions for me? or can I mosey?
2007-08-01T15:32:47 <wtd> So what happens next?
2007-08-01T15:32:54 <wtd> rordway: Thanks.
2007-08-01T15:32:55 <jaf> rordway: one sec on that
2007-08-01T15:32:58 <rordway> k
2007-08-01T15:32:58 <jbrinley> njvack: setting it up is doable. Maintaining the accounting is less desirable.
2007-08-01T15:33:00 <wickr> was there a consensus on where chat logs go?
2007-08-01T15:33:03 <mjgiarlo> we just voted on having a vote, correct, not on moving forward with OSU?
2007-08-01T15:33:04 <rsinger> rordway: one question
2007-08-01T15:33:16 <jrochkind> ksclarke: These days it costs $800 in filing fees for 501-c-3, sadly. It's gone up a lot in the past 5 years.
2007-08-01T15:33:18 <jdatema> jaf: thanks
2007-08-01T15:33:23 <jaf> mjgiarlo: no, we were voting on moving forward with OSU
2007-08-01T15:33:26 <njvack> jbrinley: True... but our books can't be too very complex.
2007-08-01T15:33:30 <jrochkind> The paperwork is a pain in the ass, but do-able.
2007-08-01T15:33:33 <rsinger> rordway: this will live on a xen vm, right?
2007-08-01T15:33:42 <rordway> rsinger: that's my current plan, yes
2007-08-01T15:33:47 <mjgiarlo> jaf: oh. +1 then.
2007-08-01T15:34:02 <jaf> so, the next step would be for ordway and ksclarke to work out a migration plan?
2007-08-01T15:34:07 <rsinger> rordway: would the plan be that code4lib.org (the thing we replicate elsewhere) will the be entirety of that vm?
2007-08-01T15:34:15 <ksclarke> jaf: well edsu has the backups
2007-08-01T15:34:26 <rordway> if for some reason I decide against a xen VM, it will be a dedicated system
2007-08-01T15:34:28 <ksclarke> I'm going to take out the old anvil drive once I get access to the machine
2007-08-01T15:34:32 <jrochkind> Then there's probably no reason that non-OSU code4libbers couldn't have root to the VM machine, yes?
2007-08-01T15:34:34 <ksclarke> but his should be good
2007-08-01T15:34:35 <rsinger> rordway: i.e., can we just make a snapshot of that vm and put it on anvil (or whereever)?
2007-08-01T15:34:40 <jaf> ksclarke: ok, then rordway, ksclarke, edsu would start talking about the migration plan
2007-08-01T15:34:44 <miker_> migration plan: 1) scp tarball to osu 2) untar
2007-08-01T15:34:45 <jrochkind> rsinger++
2007-08-01T15:34:46 <miker_> ;)
2007-08-01T15:34:57 <ksclarke> miker++
2007-08-01T15:34:59 <jrochkind> I like a nightly snapshot of that vm backed up to non-OSU location.
2007-08-01T15:35:23 <miker_> rsinger: if it's a xen vm we can migrate it to other xen servers at will :)
2007-08-01T15:35:25 <rordway> jrochkind: sudo would probably be easiest, but yes
2007-08-01T15:35:26 <rsinger> of course, that assumes it's a dedicated vm
2007-08-01T15:35:34 <jrochkind> [Our new sysadmin (hooray!) plans to make a lot of use of VMs like that here. I love having a new sysadmin!]
2007-08-01T15:35:44 <ksclarke> rsinger: should we do xen on the new anvil?
2007-08-01T15:35:45 * miker_ installs xen HV on his home box
2007-08-01T15:36:05 <wickr> does anyone know if some specific software was the culprit? do things need to be updated? or if they are just moved straight over will we have cracking issues again?
2007-08-01T15:36:11 <jrochkind> Ah, I see in the scrollback that dedicated system is not assured. That would certainly be preferable to meet the concerns that were raised.
2007-08-01T15:36:17 <jrochkind> With a dedicated VM, I think it's be almost perfect.
2007-08-01T15:36:21 * ksclarke wonders if ubuntu server does xen
2007-08-01T15:36:24 <rsinger> ksclarke: well, i don't really know one way or the other -- but a vm would be an easy way to share the 'host'
2007-08-01T15:36:34 <rsinger> ksclarke: yeah, xen is in apt
2007-08-01T15:36:42 <jaf> ok, how about this as an approach:
2007-08-01T15:36:54 <miker_> ksclarke: I think it does
2007-08-01T15:37:24 <ksclarke> hmm
2007-08-01T15:37:36 <rsinger> also, i don't see any reason why the logs and whatnot can't just stay on anvil
2007-08-01T15:37:43 <wtd> Does anyone have dates in mind for when the server would be back up, when content could get loaded up?
2007-08-01T15:37:56 <mjgiarlo> logs_on_anvil++
2007-08-01T15:38:19 <ksclarke> wtd: I'm being scheduled for getting my access pass so hopefully this week
2007-08-01T15:38:21 <jrochkind> If there's anything that someone has a strong preference to keep on anvil, and the anvil owners get it back up and allow it, I don't see any reason not to.
2007-08-01T15:38:37 <jrochkind> Unless there are others involved who have a strong preference the other way, and then they've got to duke it out.
2007-08-01T15:38:37 <ksclarke> but edsu has the logs so c4l could go up anytime they're transferred to osu
2007-08-01T15:38:48 <rordway> how about jaf and I work with ksclarke and edsu on a proposal, once that's ready we can float it by the group as a whole?
2007-08-01T15:38:50 <ksclarke> s/logs/c4l backups/
2007-08-01T15:39:00 <wtd> Sounds great, rordway.
2007-08-01T15:39:02 <mjgiarlo> rordway++
2007-08-01T15:39:05 <ksclarke> sounds good
2007-08-01T15:39:06 <jrochkind> rordway++
2007-08-01T15:39:08 <jaf> rordway++
2007-08-01T15:39:24 <rsinger> yeah, i like that
2007-08-01T15:39:38 <wtd> I'll put a little update onto the planet to assuage people's anxieties.
2007-08-01T15:39:40 <rordway> and FYI, this system would be backed up nightly
2007-08-01T15:39:49 <jaf> ok, so, maybe to sum up the decision points on this discussion:
2007-08-01T15:39:52 <mjgiarlo> wtd++ :)
2007-08-01T15:40:10 <rordway> monthly fulls, nightly incrementals
2007-08-01T15:40:14 <jaf> 1) General agreement that we will go ahead withan approach for OSU hosting the *.c4l.org site
2007-08-01T15:40:15 <jrochkind> rordway: The 'backups' I was talking to actually were 'in case of University Lawyer Trouble'. To assuage the paranoid that with a flip of a switch we could put the whole site up on a non-OSU machine, were it ever neccesary.
2007-08-01T15:40:27 <ksclarke> wtd: i see in my inbox I pick up my pass tom. so anvil should be up tom. after that
2007-08-01T15:40:45 <jaf> 2) rordway will take the lead in working with edsu, myself, and ksclarke on the actual details of a proposal for moving forward with said hosting
2007-08-01T15:40:48 <rordway> jrochkind: for those purposes, we could also do a periodic dump to someplace outside of OSU
2007-08-01T15:40:54 <jrochkind> rordway++
2007-08-01T15:41:04 <jaf> 3) proposal will be then floated to the c4l community via the discussion list
2007-08-01T15:41:15 <dbs> jrochkind: Get a Canadian to host a copy of the backup. Lots of copies keep things safe (from disaster, and from fickle federal laws).
2007-08-01T15:41:25 <njvack> BTW, do we know what attack vector the crackers used?
2007-08-01T15:41:31 <jrochkind> dbs: Canadian, pah. I'm going to get an Iraqi to do it. Wait a second, nevermind.
2007-08-01T15:41:57 <rordway> a remote hot-site on Mars?
2007-08-01T15:41:57 <ksclarke> njvack: no
2007-08-01T15:42:13 <gabe> ksclarke: wasn't it drupal?
2007-08-01T15:42:14 <rordway> is that inter-planetary network up and running yet?
2007-08-01T15:42:28 * dbs suspects it was edsu's weak username / password combo of "edsu" / "edsu"
2007-08-01T15:42:37 * ksclarke chuckles
2007-08-01T15:42:37 <zoia> ksclarke: true, true
2007-08-01T15:42:46 <rordway> haha
2007-08-01T15:42:50 <ksclarke> gabe, I don't think anyone has really done any real investigating
2007-08-01T15:42:54 <njvack> I ask, as I've found things like Drupal and Wordpress to be much bigger targets than OS vulnerabilities
2007-08-01T15:43:13 <ksclarke> wp or drupal would be my random off the cuff guess though
2007-08-01T15:43:18 *** lbjay has joined #code4lib
2007-08-01T15:43:21 <gabe> njvack: edsu seemed to think it was drupal
2007-08-01T15:43:24 <wickr> that's why I was wondering if something needs to be updated/patched before it's put back up elsewhere
2007-08-01T15:43:32 <rsinger> edsu was speculating
2007-08-01T15:43:52 <njvack> And if it was Drupal that got hacked... is OSU gonna be keeping *that* patched, or just the Xen client?
2007-08-01T15:44:11 <rordway> I'd probably import the data into a fresh install of the latest drupal
2007-08-01T15:44:26 <jaf> njvack: these are the kind of details, I think, that will be put into the proposed proposal
2007-08-01T15:44:40 <wickr> rordway: that may or may not go smoothly, def. worth a try though
2007-08-01T15:44:41 <rordway> njvack: jaf will do it
2007-08-01T15:45:03 <rsinger> does osu already have drupal installations?
2007-08-01T15:45:13 <jaf> rsinger: yeppers
2007-08-01T15:45:14 <rsinger> or should we consider migrating to another platform?
2007-08-01T15:45:15 <rsinger> ah
2007-08-01T15:45:57 <gabe> +1 on the vote, btw
2007-08-01T15:45:58 <rordway> we're most likely moving the library.o.e site to drupal, someday
2007-08-01T15:46:08 * gabe showed up late and got stuck in scrollback
2007-08-01T15:46:17 <rordway> and OSL runs drupal, as do some other groups on campus
2007-08-01T15:46:20 <ksclarke> migrate!
2007-08-01T15:46:26 <jrochkind> To what?
2007-08-01T15:46:39 <ksclarke> abd
2007-08-01T15:46:39 <rordway> cold fusion!
2007-08-01T15:46:46 <ksclarke> :-)
2007-08-01T15:46:47 <rordway> whee!
2007-08-01T15:46:56 <ksclarke> well, and cold fusion
2007-08-01T15:47:10 <rordway> maybe even warm fusion
2007-08-01T15:47:32 <rsinger> cocoon
2007-08-01T15:47:45 <jaf> gopher
2007-08-01T15:47:53 <rsinger> gopher on rails
2007-08-01T15:48:04 <mjgiarlo> OSU++
2007-08-01T15:48:04 * jaf smacks rsinger
2007-08-01T15:48:14 <rordway> gopher on meth
2007-08-01T15:48:20 * njvack smacks rordway
2007-08-01T15:48:30 <rordway> it's high performance!
2007-08-01T15:48:35 <njvack> :)
2007-08-01T15:48:45 <rsinger> so, we're done?
2007-08-01T15:48:46 <gabe> if we wanted gopher we'd host at UofM
2007-08-01T15:49:26 <jaf> rsinger: i believe so, unless there are any objections?
2007-08-01T15:49:39 <rordway> I object to gopher
2007-08-01T15:49:57 <rordway> and the 40 hour work week
2007-08-01T15:50:01 <gabe> more pointed objections can be raised on the list
2007-08-01T15:50:04 <rordway> but I'm ok with everything else
2007-08-01T15:50:16 <gabe> re: the proposal
2007-08-01T15:50:21 <jaf> rordway: we can negotiate on the 40-hour work week, I'll start at 80 :-)
2007-08-01T15:50:30 <jaf> gabe++
2007-08-01T15:50:34 <wtd> Well, good discussion.
2007-08-01T15:50:41 <rordway> maybe if I get paid for 80
2007-08-01T15:50:57 <jaf> rordway: hmmm, maybe in barbeque
2007-08-01T15:51:05 *** wtd has left #code4lib
2007-08-01T15:51:28 <rordway> I'd settle for some PC2700 DDR for my Sun Blade 1500
2007-08-01T15:51:53 <jaf> ok, I need to eat. Later folks
2007-08-01T15:51:56 *** jaf is now known as jaf_lunch
2007-08-01T15:51:57 <rordway> me too
2007-08-01T15:52:36 *** mjgiarlo changes topic to "gopher! (Was: discussion on hosting code4lib.org)"
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