On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 06:12:09PM -0400, Jonathan Rochkind wrote:
> Well, I think that if you think it's completely clear and obvious that
> it IS legal to use thumbnails without permission from the copyright
> holder, OR if you think it's completely clear and obvious that it's
> NOT----in either case you are probably mistaken. Copyright in the 21st
> century is seldom completely clear and obvious.
>
> But yeah, in my idea world, libraries would invest in some legal advice
> to figure out the most legally defensible way to do it, and band
> together to do it.
>

Sorry to go on about this, but.... We, as librarians are the
front lines. Our users count on *us* to provide the access to
information they need. There are countless resources on the web
(google: Arriba Soft, etc) to suggest that it is NOT clear (and
quite unlikely) that there would be a problem. I must confess to
having the luxury of one of the leading lights in copyright law
(http://blogs.lib.utexas.edu/freethebooks/) here on campus, encouraging
us to create as much access as possible.

What is the risk? That you might be asked to take the images down?
Before seeking hard and fast permission (sorry folks, you ain't gonna
get it from any quarter) I suggest that you investigate the risks, and
balance those against the benefits. As long as you are willing to remove
images that could infringe, it's not the huge issue it is made out to
be. I have been involved in such an instance, when an image distributor
noticed an infringing image (NOT a thumbnail) on one of our faculty
member's web sites (that faculty member had left the year before, but
the site was still up). The copyright owner was quite pleasant about
informing me of the infringement, and I was as pleasant and speedy in
taking the image down, and determining if there were any other possible
infringing images on the site. Why the huge fear!?

--peter keane



> Jonathan
>
> Peter Keane wrote:
>> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 05:29:38PM -0400, Jonathan Rochkind wrote:
>>
>>> But I would agree that it is our duty as libraries to be pushing the
>>> boundaries of these grey areas in a world where much of copyright _is_
>>> currently a gray area, not automatically taking the most expansive
>>> perspective with regard to copyright holders rights, out of fear.  Not
>>> just "society", but I think we have a special duty as libraries whose
>>> mission involves expanding access to information. [That is, all public
>>> and most academic libraries; a private or corprate library may not share
>>> this mission and this duty.].
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I would say it's something of a moral obligation (in the academic/public
>> side) to go ahead and use the thumbnails ('cause it's the right
>> thing to do AND models good information practices), in the face of
>> fear/uncertainty/doubt.
>>
>> I wonder what the effect of this very thread will be on folks wondering
>> it they should or shouldn't use thumbnails? Honestly, folks, this is our
>> profession. (Where's Larry Lessig when you need him... ;-).
>>
>> cheers-
>> peter keane
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I wish our administrators agreed.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>> Peter Keane wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually, this is one of a number of links out there (esp. regarding the
>>>> Arriba Soft case) suggesting that fair use, regarding thumbnail images,
>>>> is quite often the applicable standard, the key (often) being that there
>>>> is no "Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
>>>> copyrighted work".
>>>>
>>>> It's just depressing to me that the society, in the shadow of DCMA, RIAA
>>>> action, etc. has essentially cowered in the face of these copyright
>>>> issues, and I would go so far as to say the we librarians often abrogate
>>>> our duty. I mean it is our job to *create* access to information
>>>> not *prevent* it. Right? Geez, nothing like the free flow of information
>>>> getting privatized. My aim is just to promote the idea of assuming that
>>>> "information wants to be free" and proceed under that assumption unless
>>>> there is clear and obvious proof otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Looked at another way: a thumbnail is just a bit of "visual" metadata,
>>>> and you cannot copyright metadata.
>>>>
>>>> --peter keane
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 03:50:35PM -0500, Jonathan Gorman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Another link about thumbnail images not being copyright-able:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/947
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think this particular case is saying thumbnail images are not copyrightable, but rather that the creation of them is fair use.  I haven't read it closely, but if you look at the case and some of the description it's talking about the thumbnail images created by Google itself to represent another source.  The key words here are "highly transformative".  Google is transforming an existing work and creating a derived work for a non-competitive purpose (as the judge ruled).  Much in  the similar way traditionally creating indexes and the like are protected by copyright.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just copying another source's thumbnail does not seem to be quite the same.  After all, you are then not doing anything to the thumbnail, just copying it.  How do you what you are then printing/publishing counts as transformative work or that the "new work" derived from the existing one is not in itself copyrighted to the person who originally transformed it?  For example, were I to compose a play and then you made a series of paintings inspired by it, it's different enough I would probably not be infringing on copyright.  That doesn't mean my paintings are now not under copyright.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but it does seem a leap to make off of what I have read in these documents.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon Gorman
>>>>>
>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:23:49 -0500
>>>>>> From: Peter Keane <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] free movie cover images?
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi All-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps for some reason these precedents do not apply here (although I
>>>>>> doubt it) -- I am no lawyer. But I DO think that it is our responsibilty
>>>>>> as librarians and educators to *not* shy away from cases where copyright
>>>>>> issues are not clear and obvious. It is our job to provide the highest
>>>>>> possible service to our users, not to be timid in the face of false
>>>>>> and/or faulty claims about copyright infingement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --peter keane
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 03:00:08PM -0500, Charles Ledvina wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know my suggestion is probably filled with copyright infringements but
>>>>>>> you could use your Amazon API to get links to all of their images. Your
>>>>>>> url would look something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://webservices.amazon.com/onca/xml?Service=AWSECommerceService&SubscriptionId=[your_api_code]&Operation=ItemSearch&SearchIndex=Blended&Keywords=[upc_code]ResponseGroup=Images
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Using the 024 will usually generate a unique result and then you can
>>>>>>> choose from a variety of image sizes.  I have a kind of API of an API
>>>>>>> service running at chopac.org as an example.  Simply enter a UPC or ISBN
>>>>>>> and you get back an xml file with cover link and product link. Small,
>>>>>>> medium (default) and large images are available by adding s, m or l at
>>>>>>> the end of the UPC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Examples:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Simspons Movie-- http://chopac.org/cgi-bin/tools/upc2image.pl?024543484271
>>>>>>> Simpsons Movie (small image)--
>>>>>>> http://chopac.org/cgi-bin/tools/upc2image.pl?024543484271s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The product link is supplied to somewhat fulfill Amazon's requirements
>>>>>>> to link to their items.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Later,
>>>>>>> Charles Ledvina
>>>>>>> infosoup.org
>>>>>>> chopac.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken Irwin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With some limitations, the Google Books API allows folks to access book
>>>>>>>> covers for free. (How's that working out? Anyone having luck with it?)
>>>>>>>> -- what about movie/DVD/VHS covers? Are there any free sources for those
>>>>>>>> images?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to work up a virtual-browsing interface for our library's
>>>>>>>> pretty small collection of feature films, and I'd love to include
>>>>>>>> covers. Any ideas on how I might get them? Anyone else doing this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Ken Irwin
>>>>>>>> Reference Librarian
>>>>>>>> Thomas Library, Wittenberg University
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Jonathan Rochkind
>>> Digital Services Software Engineer
>>> The Sheridan Libraries
>>> Johns Hopkins University
>>> 410.516.8886
>>> rochkind (at) jhu.edu
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jonathan Rochkind
> Digital Services Software Engineer
> The Sheridan Libraries
> Johns Hopkins University
> 410.516.8886
> rochkind (at) jhu.edu