Carol, I agree generally about not feeding the trolls, but if the trolls
are making this an unpleasant place, then we need to speak out -- not by
feeding them, but by making it clear that such messages make c4l an
unfriendly place. We still don't know how to go about that at this
point, and I second Mita that we need to decide if the
"anti-discrimination policy" (because I do think it's as much about
anti-discrimination as anti-harassment) is done or not. Then we need to
have the discussion about: what does it mean to implement the policy?"
I've felt very uncomfortable about the strong reactions on this list
against women taking an action that they wish to take, especially
because some responses have tended to be unnecessarily vituperative. I
think it is general uneasiness with our having broken the silence as
women, thus "forcing" the community to address what is a difficult
issue. I think we all wish that it wasn't an issue, and we're in the
phase of "blame the messenger." What is MOST important is that this
backlash doesn't make more women uneasy here. So we need to get through
this before damage is done. I wish I had a concrete suggestion/answer,
but all I can think of at the moment is that we must be very supportive
of the community, men and women and "others," because it has great value
On 12/8/12 6:58 AM, Carol Bean wrote:
> May I suggest some comments don't need a response because (1) they are intended facetiously and/or (2) they are trolling. In either case, it's best to take the high ground and let them pass into oblivion, especially in highly charged discussions.
> On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:40 AM, Mita Williams wrote:
>> This is the framing that I resonate with as well.
>> I really appreciate all the conversations as of late on code4lib and I find
>> that the poll on gender and community was incredibly illuminating. I'm
>> currently reading 'Unlocking the clubhouse' and there are large swaths
>> of relevant passages that apply that have to with the setting of model
>> behaviour in a field that might explain the high numbers who don't feel the
>> community that others do (An aside: when you are tempted to tell someone
>> else what to *feel* please re-consider).
>> One aspect of community is the sense of shared experience. If you are a
>> librarian, you don't have to explain the work that you do at in the same
>> way you have to do when you among non-librarians. That's part of the joy of
>> a community. In code4lib you can joke about text editors or what have you,
>> knowing most folks will get and maybe even laugh at the joke. Again, I want
>> to say that I appreciate the efforts of those who are taking the time to
>> explain where women's experiences are not so shared with men. I've seen
>> what I think is genuine reflection and re-thinking and that gladdens the
>> heart. That being said, comments like this
>> like trolling to me and the lack of response to such comments leaves me
>> disappointed. Having to constantly explains one's self doesn't lend to a
>> sense of community.
>> All that being said, I would hate the code4lib community to lose momentum
>> on the matter of the anti-harassment policy. Sadly, it is much needed.
>> On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Bess Sadler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> On Dec 7, 2012, at 12:59 PM, Joshua Gomez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> Others have mentioned they fear that a subgroup will only decrease the
>>>> diversity within code4lib by pulling women away from it and into the new
>>>> group. This was my initial concern as well, but when I look at other
>>>> of women in tech groups I realize that they don't decrease women's
>>>> participation in mainstream groups. In fact they help boost women's
>>>> profiles and skill sets, thus increasing their likelihood of
>>>> in mainstream groups.
>>> Well said, Joshua. Any separate women in technology groups I've been
>>> involved with (e.g., devchix, grrlswithmodems back in the day) have been
>>> what you describe here. These groups are supplementary, and create a place
>>> to get support if one needs help navigating mainstream (and yes,
>>> male-dominated) communities.
[log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net