People did raise specific issues with Zoia which can reasonably be fit into the code of conduct's definition of harassment (many of which have therefore been addressed) so saying "no one has spoken up" seems strange. People did speak up. Some people listened and did something about it; some people objected ~"You're spoiling our fun" and this kind of reaction is what has the potential to make some people nervous about speaking up, because no-one wants to spoil people's fun.

This is what I think Karen was pointing out (in general if I've interpreted this instance beyond her intent) - that if we care enough in the abstract to make a code of conduct then we should also care enough in the abstract to consider how, practically, we're going to help people feel willing to speak up?

Note before anyone gets nervous I'm *not* leaping to censorship as a solution. I'm asking:  if I'm having fun doing X, and a friend of mine says that actually something about X is making them uncomfortable-as-in-harassed, how should I (and by extension the rest of the community) react in order to resolve the situation without increasing my friend's discomfort?


[I really hope you can understand the difference between me wanting to be "comfortable in an environment where no-one's harassing me" and wanting to be "comfortable in an environment where I'm being fed grapes, massaged with vanilla oil, and assured that all the lurkers support me in email". I'm not agitating for the word to be added to the policy if it's not already there because this isn't a court of law and precise diction just doesn't matter, but by the same token if it *were* there then I'm pretty sure that, given the context of it being an anti-harassment policy, any reasonable person would interpret it to mean the former rather than the latter.  (And by the same token again, I'm going to drop this at this point because it doesn't matter compared to the main discussion above.)]

Deborah

-----Original Message-----
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Shaun Ellis
Sent: Friday, 25 January 2013 12:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Group Decision Making (was Zoia)

> --And how did we get from "The code of conduct is sufficient so let's not overthink things!" to "Wait, we need to implement procedures to vote on the code of conduct!" anyway??
>

We got there because you replied that there was an ongoing debate about whether the policy was sufficient enough to deal with any discomfort folks might have about zoia.  I still think the policy is sufficient, as it's meant to be used when dealing with incidents in context, not in the abstract.  To date, no one has spoken up about an incident where they were harassed by zoia.  Unless there's something I missed, it has all been speculation that someone might be harassed in the future. 
According to the anti-harassment policy, if you read it, no action should be taken.

To be clear, I am only uncomfortable with "uncomfortable" being used in the policy because I wouldn't support it being there.  Differing opinions can make people uncomfortable.  Since I am not going to stop sharing what may be a dissenting opinion, should I be banned?

It's an anti-harassment policy, not a comfort policy.  If you want to see something different, it seems that now is the time to step up and change it. :)


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf 
> Of Shaun Ellis
> Sent: Friday, 25 January 2013 10:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Group Decision Making (was Zoia)
>
>> I am uneasy about coming up with a policy for banning people (from
>> what?) and voting on it, before it's demonstrated that it's even 
>> needed. Can't we just tackle these issues as they come up, in 
>> context, rather than in the abstract?
>>
>
> I share your unease.  But deciding to situations in context without a set of guidelines is simply another kind of policy.  I'm actually more uneasy about ambiguity over what is acceptable, and no agreed upon way to handle it.
>
> I don't think the current policy is ready to "go to vote" as it seems there is still some debate over what it should cover and exactly what type of behavior it is meant to prevent.
>
> I suggest there is a set time period to submit objections as GitHub issues and resolve them before we vote.  Whatever issues can't get resolved end up in a branch/fork.  In the end, we vote on each of the forks, or "no policy at all".
>
> Does that sound reasonable?
>
> --
> Shaun Ellis
> User Interace Developer, Digital Initiatives Princeton University 
> Library
>
>
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--
Shaun Ellis
User Interace Developer, Digital Initiatives Princeton University Library

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