LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for CODE4LIB Archives


CODE4LIB Archives

CODE4LIB Archives


CODE4LIB@LISTS.CLIR.ORG


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

CODE4LIB Home

CODE4LIB Home

CODE4LIB  February 2013

CODE4LIB February 2013

Subject:

Re: back to minorities question, seeking guidance

From:

"Cornel Darden Jr." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:27:33 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (173 lines)

Hello,

"Those not well versed in Geometry shall not enter"

-Plato-

Thanks,

Cornel Darden Jr.
MSLIS
Librarian
Kennedy-King College
City Colleges of Chicago
Work 773-602-5449
Cell 708-705-2945

On Feb 22, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I do not find drawing a line between philosophy and mathematics to be
> useful, as they have pretty vast overlap. Plato and Aristotle talked
> about math, whether they called it math or not. Whether set theory has
> its roots in math or philosophy is irrelevant.
>
> I don't believe that I said that mathematics was essential to
> programming, and I did not intend to imply that. I have certainly
> found it useful, but having said that, I find everything that I
> studied in school, with the possible exception of weight training,
> useful in almost every endeavor. (My other PE, skiing, is quite
> useful)
>
> I did say that logic is needed, and I'll stand by that. It doesn't
> matter where you get it.
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> On 2/22/13 8:39 AM, Cary Gordon wrote:
>>>
>>> While comprehensive specific math skill set might not be necessary in
>>> programming, an understanding of mathematics beyond arithmetic can be
>>> very useful. Relational database theory, for example, maps pretty
>>> neatly to set theory.
>>
>>
>> In fact, Cary, you can do relational databases just fine without set theory.
>> If it maps to set theory when you do know it, that's fine. But in all the
>> years in which I've worked on databases, only one person involved in the
>> design was a mathematician, and she didn't work directly on defining the
>> database design. Just because some of coding can be explained with math
>> doesn't mean that you *need* math to explain it. Mathematics did not invent
>> the concept of sets; you can go back to Aristotle and find, pre-mathematical
>> set theory, a good philosophical basis for that thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Mathematics in general delivers a lot of insight into dealing with
>>> complex patterns.
>>
>>
>> As do music, language, clothing manufacture and building. And if you may
>> recall, the punch card and the first programming came from weaving
>> machinery. There are lots of activities that use complex patterns.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner
>>> or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic.
>>
>> Yes, but there are many sources for that solid understanding. To insist that
>> the understanding has to come from mathematics is to essentially take a very
>> narrow view of human thought. This is one of the things that bothers me
>> about some proponents of mathematics: there seems to be a view that math is
>> the one true approach. If that were the case, our world would be sadly
>> uniform and uncreative.
>>
>> kc
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Cary
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to
>>>>> something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than
>>>>> something I don't (math).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I want to clear up the "math is hard" and "programming is math" myths.
>>>> First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching
>>>> 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in
>>>> math departments. So "math is hard" for many of us, but it's not
>>>> necessarily
>>>> a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much
>>>> random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.)
>>>>
>>>> Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when
>>>> silicon
>>>> valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that
>>>> they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them
>>>> programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good
>>>> programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a
>>>> difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins
>>>> with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never
>>>> need.
>>>>
>>>> I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE
>>>> publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by
>>>> Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or
>>>> Nook
>>>> book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook)
>>>>
>>>> kc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> LS degree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the
>>>>>> vast
>>>>>> majority are women.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those of you who came into this community and at some point went
>>>>>> through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> in the general population?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right
>>>>>> thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> what the curriculum and school could do more holistically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim
>>>> --
>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net
>>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>>>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>>>> skype: kcoylenet
>>
>> --
>> Karen Coyle
>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net
>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>> skype: kcoylenet
>
>
>
> --
> Cary Gordon
> The Cherry Hill Company
> http://chillco.com

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTS.CLIR.ORG

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager