I generally find that Bing makes better use of RDFa/schema.org than
Google does.
kc
On 5/6/15 7:33 AM, Megan O'Neill Kudzia wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've been experimenting with schema.org OpeningHoursSpecification, and
> currently Bing is scraping our hours, but Google isn't. I am using
> RDFa-lite and I've validated it using a linter (thanks Jason Ronallo!), so
> I'm scratching my head as to why our hours *still* don't show up on a
> google search.
>
> I suspect part of it for us might be that we're re-branding away from
> Stockwell-Mudd Libraries to Albion College Library, as it's much more
> explanatory, but neither search through Google yields a nice box with hours
> in it like the SFPL.
>
> If and when I figure out the problem I'd be happy to send you an update of
> what we did and what caused it to finally work properly.
>
> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Tom, Google will not tell you. The entirety of how Google search works is
>> a trade secret. We don't know the algorithm for ranking, and we don't know
>> what information they glean from web pages -- and they are unlikely to
>> tell. It is a constant on the schema.org discussion list that developers
>> want to know what Google/Bing/Yahoo/Yandex will do with specific
>> information in the web pages, and it is a constant that the reps there
>> reply: we cannot tell you that. The only way to find out is to code and
>> observe.
>>
>> kc
>>
>>
>> On 5/6/15 7:00 AM, Tom Keays wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to find out how and why Google is parsing this information. If
>>> you
>>> go to the the SFPL hours page (first link in the Google results), and look
>>> at the source code, this is all you find.
>>> http://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=0100000101
>>> Is the ID in the DIV sufficient? It would be nice to have a set of use
>>> cases to work from.
>>>
>>> Currently, I'm generating a weekly hours box by pulling JSONP from the
>>> hours API of LibCal. I could easily output this in schema.org format (and
>>> probably will now), but can Google pick up the information from the DOM if
>>> it is delivered as JSON and transformed into HTML?
>>>
>>> <div id="library-hours">
>>> <h2>Hours</h2>
>>> <table class="hours" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
>>> <tr>
>>> <th>Sun</th>
>>> <th>Mon</th>
>>> <th>Tue</th>
>>> <th class="today">Wed</th>
>>> <th>Thu</th>
>>> <th>Fri</th>
>>> <th>Sat</th>
>>> </tr>
>>> <tr>
>>> <td>12-5</td>
>>> <td>10-6</td>
>>> <td>9-8</td>
>>> <td class="today">9-8</td>
>>> <td>9-8</td>
>>> <td>12-6</td>
>>> <td>10-6</td>
>>> </tr>
>>> </table>
>>> </div>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Charlie, I don't know of any libraries that have used schema.org for
>>>> their web site - perhaps others do. If it is used, it should be "picked
>>>> up"
>>>> the next time the search engines index the site. What the search engines
>>>> do
>>>> with schema.org is not guaranteed, but can be observed. It is not
>>>> guaranteed because none of the search engines will say what they do, as
>>>> that is considered a trade secret (especially from each other).
>>>>
>>>> However, as locations and hours are important for their commercial
>>>> customers (stores, restaurants, etc.) I would expect that to be picked up
>>>> as a matter of course. Note that already locations and hours for some
>>>> businesses do show in the search engines, and that is for sites that are
>>>> not yet using schema.org, so the engines have some way of picking that
>>>> up
>>>> from the HTML. The Google side-bar "knowledge graph" for my local
>>>> libraries
>>>> shows " Hours <
>>>>
>>>> https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&biw=1299&bih=561&q=san+francisco+public+library+larkin+street+hours&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDgzYHnxCXfq6-gVlZhbF5sZZ0drKVfk5-cmJJZn4enGGVkV9aVBzLKeznIsHxlTMy2S10V0iJwvZlMgBPWBDOSAAAAA&ei=qhlKVcKWJ8b7oQS65oCQCA&ved=0CJgBEOgTMBA
>>>>> :
>>>> Open today · 9:00 am – 8:00 pm <javascript:void(0)>
>>>> " but I have no idea where that comes from.
>>>>
>>>> kc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/6/15 5:22 AM, Charlie Morris wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious, Karen, Ethan or anyone else, do you know of any examples of
>>>>> libraries that have implemented schema.org or RDFa for hours data and
>>>>> have
>>>>> noticed that Google or some other search engine has picked it up (i.e.,
>>>>> correctly displaying that data as part of the search results)? And if
>>>>> so,
>>>>> how quickly will Google or the like pickup on changes to hours (i.e.,
>>>>> shifting between semesters or unplanned changes)?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Ethan Gruber <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 on the RDFa and schema.org. For those that don't know the library
>>>>> URL
>>>>>
>>>>>> off-hand, it is much easier to find a library website by Googling than
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is to go through the central university portal, and the hours will show
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> at the top of the page after having been harvested by search engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that library hours is one of the possible bits of information
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> could be encoded as RDFa in the library web site, thus making it
>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>> to derive library hours directly from the listing of hours on the web
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> site
>>>>>> rather than keeping a separate list. Schema.org does have the elements
>>>>>>> such
>>>>>> that hours can be encoded. This would mean that hours could show in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> display of the library's catalog entry on Google, Yahoo and Bing.
>>>>>>> Being
>>>>>>> available directly through the search engines might be sufficient, not
>>>>>>> necessitating creating yet-another-database for that data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Schema.org uses a restaurant as its opening hours example, but much of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> data would be the same for a library:
>>>>>>> <div vocab="http://schema.org/" typeof="Restaurant">
>>>>>>> <span property="name">GreatFood</span>
>>>>>>> <div property="aggregateRating" typeof="AggregateRating">
>>>>>>> <span property="ratingValue">4</span> stars -
>>>>>>> based on <span property="reviewCount">250</span> reviews
>>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>>> <div property="address" typeof="PostalAddress">
>>>>>>> <span property="streetAddress">1901 Lemur Ave</span>
>>>>>>> <span property="addressLocality">Sunnyvale</span>,
>>>>>>> <span property="addressRegion">CA</span> <span
>>>>>>> property="postalCode">94086</span>
>>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>>> <span property="telephone">(408) 714-1489</span>
>>>>>>> <a property="url" href="http://www.dishdash.com">
>>>>>>> www.greatfood.com
>>>>>>> </a>
>>>>>>> Hours:
>>>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Sa 11:00-14:30">Mon-Sat
>>>>>>> 11am
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>> 2:30pm
>>>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Th 17:00-21:30">Mon-Thu
>>>>>>> 5pm -
>>>>>>> 9:30pm
>>>>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Fr-Sa 17:00-22:00">Fri-Sat
>>>>>>> 5pm -
>>>>>>> 10:00pm
>>>>>>> Categories:
>>>>>>> <span property="servesCuisine">
>>>>>>> Middle Eastern
>>>>>>> </span>,
>>>>>>> <span property="servesCuisine">
>>>>>>> Mediterranean
>>>>>>> </span>
>>>>>>> Price Range: <span property="priceRange">$$</span>
>>>>>>> Takes Reservations: Yes
>>>>>>> </div>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It seems to me that using schema.org would get more bang for the buck
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> it would get into the search engines and could also be aggregated into
>>>>>>> whatever database is needed. As we've seen with OCLC, having a
>>>>>>> separate
>>>>>>> listing is likely to mean that the data will be out of date.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/5/15 2:19 PM, nitin arora wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't see they distinguished between public libraries and other
>>>>>>> types
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> their campaign page.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They say " all libraries" as far as I can see.
>>>>>>>> So I suppose then that this is true for "all libraries":
>>>>>>>> "Libraries offer a space anyone can enter, where money isn't
>>>>>>>> exchanged,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> documentation doesn't have to be shown."
>>>>>>>> Who knew fines and library/student-IDs were a thing of the past?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only data sets I can find where they got the 17,000 number is for
>>>>>>>> public libraries:
>>>>>>>> http://www.imls.gov/research/pls_data_files.aspx
>>>>>>>> Maybe I missed something.
>>>>>>>> There is an hours field on one of the CSVs I downloaded, etc for 2012
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> data
>>>>>>> (the most recent I could find).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Asking 10k for something targeted for completion in June and without
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> grasp on what types of libraries there are and how volatile the hours
>>>>>>>> information is (especially in crisis) ...
>>>>>>>> Sounds naive at best, sketchy at worst.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The "flexible funding" button says "this campaign will receive all
>>>>>>>> funds
>>>>>>>> raised even if it does not reach its goals".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The value of these places for youth cannot be underestimated."
>>>>>>>> So is the value of a quick buck ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:53 PM, McCanna, Terran <
>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not at all surprised that this doesn't already exist, and
>>>>>>>> even if
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OCLC's was available, I'd be willing to bet it was out of date.
>>>>>>>>> Public library hours, especially in underfunded areas, may fluctuate
>>>>>>>>> depending on funding cycles, seasons (whether school is in or out),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> etc.,
>>>>>>> not to mention closing/reopening/moving because of old buildings that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to be updated. We have around 280 locations in our consortium and we
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to rely on self-reporting to find out if their hours change. We
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't have staff time to check every one of their web sites on regular
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> basis, I can't imagine keeping track of 17,000!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Terran McCanna
>>>>>>>>> PINES Program Manager
>>>>>>>>> Georgia Public Library Service
>>>>>>>>> 1800 Century Place, Suite 150
>>>>>>>>> Atlanta, GA 30345
>>>>>>>>> 404-235-7138
>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Peter Murray" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 4:36:56 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Library Hours
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OCLC has an institutional registry [1], which had (in part) library
>>>>>>>>> hours,
>>>>>>>>> addresses, and so forth. It seems to be unavailable, though [2].
>>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> the only systematic collection of library hours data that I know
>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] https://www.oclc.org/worldcat-registry.en.html
>>>>>>>>> [2] https://www.worldcat.org/registry/institution/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 5, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Bigwood, David <
>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This looks like a decent group, but I find this statement hard to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Your tax-deductible donation supports adding the names, address
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hours of operation of all libraries to Range. The Institute of Museum
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Library Services publishes an open data catalog which is the source
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> we'll
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> use for the names and the addresses of the nation's libraries.
>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there isn't a listing of the days and hours of operation for all
>>>>>>>>> libraries
>>>>>>>>> in the US. We are going to track down the hours of operation for all
>>>>>>>>> 17,000
>>>>>>>>> libraries and make that information available -- in Range and for
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> developers who may want to use it."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/range-food-and-safe-places-for-youth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are the hours of public libraries really not available?
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> David Bigwood
>>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> Lunar and Planetary Institute
>>>>>>>>>> @LPI_Library
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lunarandplanetaryinstitute/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net
>>>>>>> m: +1-510-435-8234
>>>>>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net
>>>> m: +1-510-435-8234
>>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> Karen Coyle
>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net
>> m: +1-510-435-8234
>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
>>
>
>
--
Karen Coyle
[log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net
m: +1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
|
