Ah, forget the first paragraph. I just found the section in the (very
confusing - OWL DL? 2? ugh) documentation where they specifically allow
ObjectProperty and class. But I do want to continue (or at least
emphasize) the question of constraining the relators to
ObjectProperties. I honestly do think that such a choice should be up to
the folks using the vocabulary, based on their needs. If BIBFRAME wants
to require IRIs as objects that's fine. But I see the LoC vocabularies
as not being limited to BIBFRAME - or at least, I think that would be a
good approach.
YMMV.
kc
On 10/23/23 7:19 AM, Karen Coyle wrote:
> Thanks, Kevin. My question, originally, was whether the typing
> assigned can be seen as "OR" or "AND". I know that you can define SKOS
> entities as objects and as properties and these are not seen as being
> in conflict, but SKOS is very clear in defining this, making sure that
> it is open. In the LoC case, it is an OWL declaration of
> ObjectProperty and the class Role, a kind of punning. It seems to me
> that all of the declarations are always attached to the subject, and
> therefore using them as objects would trigger inferencing
> inconsistencies (OWL tends to be strict). Have you tried that? Or are
> you eschewing inferencing, as one often does.
>
> In any case, the big question was using the relators as properties and
> the object as a string. There are folks who need to do that, and it is
> a shame that there isn't an unconstrained version that would allow
> this, since the LoC list is the most complete of all lists we can
> find. Declaration as an rdf:Property would do that, and that would
> entail less "rule" on the property definition, while users could
> define their own more strict rules for their application. Again, this
> brings up how far you can go with punning - adding rdf:Property to the
> mix would probably just make things more confusing.
>
> I vote for simpler and less constrained at the vocabulary level,
> leaving constraints to the application profile level, so everyone can
> have the usage they need.
>
> kc
>
>
> On 10/20/23 11:23 AM, Ford, Kevin wrote:
>> Hi Karen,
>>
>> Steve is not wrong, but I think you are talking about two different
>> things.
>>
>> Using a string with a Relators property would not conform to how they
>> have been defined at ID.LOC.GOV. So, the answer to your specific
>> question is: no, it is not our expectation Relator URIs would be used
>> as properties with the object of the triple being either a URI or a
>> string. Only URIs.
>>
>> But the Relators URIs have also been defined such that they can be
>> used as a Property or as an Object, which is what Steve was driving
>> at. We use them as Objects in Bibframe, hence their (additional)
>> typing as a bf:Role.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Kevin
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Ford
>> Network Development and MARC Standards Office
>> Library of Congress
>> Washington, DC
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Karen
>> Coyle
>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2023 11:41 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] [External] [CODE4LIB] Question about multiple
>> declarations
>>
>> CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external
>> source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking on
>> links.
>>
>> Steve, the list doesn't need to hear this, but you are not correct here.
>> The relators are defined as owl:ObjectProperties (not just
>> "properties") which means that they cannot take text as objects.
>> However, I want LoC to confirm that, because this is their doing.
>>
>> kc
>>
>>
>> On 10/17/23 8:17 AM, McDonald, Stephen wrote:
>>> It is an inherent problem when creating a vocabulary--should this
>>> set of traits be properties or types? Whichever choice you make, you
>>> face the problem that other vocabularies may choose differently. I
>>> believe this vocabulary defines relators as properties. But they
>>> also want to show how the terms are related to terms in OWL and
>>> BIBFRAME where they are defined as types.
>>>
>>> Steve McDonald
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Karen
>>>> Coyle
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2023 10:40 AM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] [External] [CODE4LIB] Question about multiple
>>>> declarations
>>>>
>>>> tl;dr: Does LoC intend that its relator properties be used with both
>>>> "thing" and "string" objects?
>>>>
>>>> kc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/10/23 8:02 AM, McDonald, Stephen wrote:
>>>>> That is not correct. The statement
>>>>> <rdfs:subPropertyOf
>>>>> rdf:resource="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> is a single predicate-object statement, enclosed within angle
>>>>> brackets.
>>>>> The following statement
>>>>> <rdf:type
>>>>> rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#ObjectProperty"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> is also separate statement, enclosed within angle brackets. The OWL
>>>> statement is not part of the subPropertyOf statement. The next
>>>> statement is also a separate statement. So we have three statements:
>>>>> subPropertyOf: DC contributor
>>>>> type: owl ObjectProperty
>>>>> type: BIBFRAME role
>>>>>
>>>>> The term you were looking up is the implied subject of the
>>>>> statements,
>>>> making these RDF triples.
>>>>> Steve McDonald
>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 9, 2023 5:36 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: [External] [CODE4LIB] Question about multiple declarations
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking at the LoC relators at id.loc.gov, and am trying to
>>>>>> understand the implications of the multiple declarations for
>>>>>> relator terms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <rdfs:subPropertyOf
>>>>>> rdf:resource="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor"/>
>>>>>> <rdf:type
>>>>>> rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#ObjectProperty"/>
>>>>>> <rdf:type
>>>>>> rdf:resource="http://id.loc.gov/ontologies/bibframe/Role"/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> dct:contributor is not an Object Property; there is no object type
>>>>>> given, so I suppose it is de facto an Annotation Property. I read
>>>>>> the next statement as narrowing, so at statement 2 we have:
>>>>>> subproperty of dct:contributor AND an owl:ObjectProperty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If my reading is correct, it would be a violation of this to use
>>>>>> the relator with a string rather than a thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Stop me here if I'm wrong.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then the 3rd statement appears to say that the relator is a
>>>>>> bf:Role, which is a BIBFRAME-specific class. I can't wrap my head
>>>>>> around the functionality of this statement and would love a brief
>>>>>> explanation.
>>>>>> I'm undoubtedly not into BIBFRAME deep enough to grok this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, my reading is that each relator is ALL THREE OF THESE; this
>>>>>> is an AND not at OR. Right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for any help,
>>>>>> kc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://kcoyle.net__;!!EDx7F7x-0XSOB8YS_
>>>>>> BQ!eHPXLOmgHd34Nkhl7hC1y1HksSXx1U6hRMICVD7hgM2VshIAMS7KC8rwlhpiRDMc
>>>>>> J39slRBrXwrxVIJV$
>>>>>> m: +1-510-435-8234
>>>>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Caution: This message originated from outside of the Tufts
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>>>> --
>>>> Karen Coyle
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://kcoyle.net__;!!EDx7F7x-0XSOB8YS_BQ
>>>> !eHPXLOmgHd34Nkhl7hC1y1HksSXx1U6hRMICVD7hgM2VshIAMS7KC8rwlhpiRDMcJ39s
>>>> lRBrXwrxVIJV$
>>>> m: +1-510-435-8234
>>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600
>> --
>> Karen Coyle
>> [log in to unmask]
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://kcoyle.net__;!!EDx7F7x-0XSOB8YS_BQ!eHPXLOmgHd34Nkhl7hC1y1HksSXx1U6hRMICVD7hgM2VshIAMS7KC8rwlhpiRDMcJ39slRBrXwrxVIJV$
>>
>
--
Karen Coyle
[log in to unmask]
http://kcoyle.net
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