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Extensibility as absolutely key. I know that some people consider XML to be inherently extensible, but I'm concerned that the conceptual model presented by FRBR doesn't support extensibility. For example, the FRBR entity "Place" represents only the place as a subject. If you want to represent places anywhere else in the record, you are SOL. Ditto the "Event" entity. The attributes in FRBR have no inherent structure, so you have, say, Manifestation with a whole page of attributes that are each defined at the most detailed level. You have "reduction ratio (microform)" but no "reproduction info" field that you could extend for another physical format. You have "date of publication" but no general "date" property that could be extended to other dates that are needed (in fact, the various date fields have no relation to each other). To have an extensible data structure we need to have some foundation "classes" that we can build on, and nothing in FRBR, RDA, or MARC gives us that. kc Casey A Mullin wrote: > (Attention: lurker emerging) > > To me what it comes down to is neither simplicity nor complexity, but > extensibility. In a perfect world, our data models should be capable > of representing very sophisticated and robust relationships at a high > level of granularity, while still accommodating ease of metadata > production and contribution (especially by non-experts and those > outside the library community). > > I agree that none of our existing data structures/syntaxes are /a > priori /fundamental or infallible. But what is promising to me about > RDF is its intuitive mode of expression and extensibility (exactly the > kind I advocate above). > > Casey > > Han, Yan wrote: >> Bill and Peter, >> >> Very nice posts. XML, RDF, MARC and DC are all different ways to >> present information in a way (of course, XML, RDF, and DC are easier >> to read/processed by machine). >> However, down the fundamentals, I think that it can go deeper, >> basically data structure and algorithms making things works. RDF >> (with triples) is a directed graph. Graph is a powerful (the most >> powerful?) data structure that you can model everything. However, >> some of the graph theory/problems are NP-hard problems. In >> fundamental we are talking about Math. So a balance needs to be made. >> (between how complex the model is and how easy(or possible) to get it >> implemented). As computing power grows, complex data modeling and >> data mining are on the horizon. >> >> Yan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf >> Of Peter Schlumpf >> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:09 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: [CODE4LIB] You got it!!!!! Re: [CODE4LIB] Something >> completely different >> >> Bill, >> >> You have hit the nail on the head!!!!! This is EXACTLY what I am >> trying to do! It's the underlying stuff that I am trying to get >> at. Looking at RDF may yield some good ideas. But I am not >> thinking in terms of RDF or XML, triples, or MARC, standards, or any >> of that stuff that gets thrown around here. Even the Internet is not >> terribly necessary. I am thinking in terms of data structures, >> pointers, sparse matrices, relationships between objects and yes, set >> theory too -- things like that. The former is pretty much cruft that >> lies upon the latter, and it mostly just gets in the way. Noise, as >> you put it, Bill! >> >> A big problem here is that Libraryland has a bad habit of getting >> itself lost in the details and going off on all kinds of tangents. >> As I said before, the biggest prison is between the ears!!!! Throw >> out all that junk in there and just start over! When I begin >> programming this thing my only tools will be a programming language >> (C or Java) a text editor (vi) and my head. But before I really >> start that, right now I am writing a paper that explains how this >> stuff works at a very low level. It's mostly an effort to get my >> thoughts down clearly, but I will share a draft of it with y'all on >> here soon. >> >> Peter Schlumpf >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Bill Dueber <[log in to unmask]> >>> Sent: Apr 9, 2009 10:37 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Something completely different >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Mike Taylor <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I'm not sure what to make of this except to say that Yet Another XML >>>> Bibliographic Format is NOT the answer! >>>> >>>> >>> I recognize that you're being flippant, and yet think there's an >>> important >>> nugget in here. >>> >>> When you say it that way, it makes it sound as if folks are debating >>> the >>> finer points of OAI-MARC vs MARC-XML -- that it's simply syntactic >>> sugar >>> (although I'm certainly one to argue for the importance of syntactic >>> sugar) >>> over the top of what we already have. >>> >>> What's actually being discussed, of course, is the underlying data >>> model. >>> E-R pairs primarily analyzed by set theory, triples forming directed >>> graphs, >>> whether or not links between data elements can themselves have >>> attributes -- >>> these are all possible characteristics of the fundamental >>> underpinning of a >>> data model to describe the data we're concerned with. >>> >>> The fact that they all have common XML representations is noise, and >>> referencing the currently-most-common xml schema for these things is >>> just >>> convenient shorthand in a community that understands the exemplars. >>> The fact >>> that many in the library community don't understand that syntax is >>> not the >>> same as a data model is how we ended up with RDA. (Mike: I don't >>> know your >>> stuff, but I seriously doubt you're among that group. I'm talkin' in >>> general, here.) >>> >>> Bibliographic data is astoundingly complex, and I believe >>> wholeheartedly >>> that modeling it sufficiently is a very, very hard task. But no >>> matter the >>> underlying model, we should still insist on starting with the basics >>> that >>> computer science folks have been using for decades now: uids (and, >>> these >>> days, guids) for the important attributes, separation of data and >>> display, >>> definition of sufficient data types and reuse of those types whenever >>> possible, separation of identity and value, full normalization of >>> data, zero >>> ambiguity in the relationship diagram as a fundamental tenet, and a >>> rigorous >>> mathematical model to describe how it all fits together. >>> >>> This is hard stuff. But it's worth doing right. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bill Dueber >>> Library Systems Programmer >>> University of Michigan Library >>> > -- ----------------------------------- Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant [log in to unmask] http://www.kcoyle.net ph.: 510-540-7596 skype: kcoylenet fx.: 510-848-3913 mo.: 510-435-8234 ------------------------------------