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Karen, You said: "How are the WEM of each separate resource here connected? In other words, do you have a Work entity defined for "preface" that links to an expression entity for "preface", and do they all have identifiers? (This really needs a diagram!) It seems like somewhere you need: (Expression) preface --> expresses --> (Work) preface That would have to exist outside of this particular description, right?" Yes. But I think it would look more like this. (Expression) preface to Moby Dick by named author for Moby Dick+a edition date --> expresses --> (Work) preface to Moby Dick by named author for Moby Dick+a edition date I just want to avoid confusing people with a diagram that looks like there may be one (work) called preface for all instances of prefaces. And you would need the same sort of connections for Moby Dick and the poem by Hart Crane in this situation. Each work that is contained in the whole work of works needs (or can have) the WEMI structure. And so do the whole work of works. Crane's poem is a work. Melville's novel is a work. Somebody's preface to the "Moby Dick+a" work is a work. They all need to be understood as works. But we can always make judgments about what we want to bother with. One might skip the effort of asserting a work entity for an undistinguished and unsigned preface to anything, and in some other case someone else may make that effort. Matthew Beacom -----Original Message----- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:52 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Variations/FRBR project releases FRBR XML Schemas Quoting "Beacom, Matthew" <[log in to unmask]>: > > Work: Moby Dick with preface, appendices, Hart Crane poem (I'd call > this an aggregate work) > Includes: (Work) preface (by someone) > Includes: (Work) Poem (by Hart Crane) > Includes: (Work) Moby Dick (by Herman Melville) > Expression: Moby Dick with preface, appendices, Hart Crane poem > Includes: (Expression) preface (by someone) > Includes: (Expression) Poem (by Hart Crane) > Includes: (Expression) Moby Dick (by Herman Melville) > Manifestation: Moby Dick with preface, appendices, Hart Crane poem > Contains: (Work/Expression) preface (by someone) > Contains: (Work/Expression) Poem (by Hart Crane) > Contains: (Work/Expression) Moby Dick (by Herman Melville) kc > > Other expression groups of the above could be those same works > translated to French or Russian or Chinese. One could think of > others, but they might all get more complicated than straight > translation. > > Other manifestation groups of the above could be a hard bound deluxe > edition, a hard bound trade edition, a trade paper edition and a > mass market edition with the only physical differences being covers > and paper quality/size. Add a few proprietary e-versions, if you want. > > With regard to RDA, I think you are still working with a more or > less traditional catalog model that begins with inventory control of > physical items in a collection (whether tangible or virtual, > whether local or distributed.) The new aspects of RDA enhance our > ability to connect the items to one another at the manifestation, > expression and work levels. > > I don't think RDA goes as far as you want it to go. But I'm not sure > there is any other model to follow. One has to connect > abstractions like work to actual items one can use. A reference to > a work without some linkage to an item that embodies it is a dead > end. > > Matthew Beacom > > -----Original Message----- > From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf > Of Karen Coyle > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:10 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Variations/FRBR project relases FRBR XML Schemas > > Quoting Jonathan Rochkind <[log in to unmask]>: > >> A big mistake, if it means what we think it means, that RDA has decided >> that a given Manifestation can not contain several Expressions. > > I'm not sure they've actually stated that, although that seems to be > the implication. I think they intend for you to use the "contains" > and "contained in" relationship that can apply to any WEMI entity. And > this is where RDA's implementation of FRBR becomes difficult when I > try to think of how to present this to the user -- > > Work: Moby Dick > Expression: Moby Dick with preface, appendices, Hart Crane poem > Contains: (Work/Expression) preface > Contains: (Work/Expression) Hart Crane Poem > Manifestation: Moby Dick with preface, appendices, Hart Crane poem > ?Contains: preface > ?Contains: Hart Crane Poem > > While there may be some logic here, it seems like this just reproduces > the "unit card" view that we have today, with a manifestation and > added entries. I don't know what entity the "contains" hangs off of, > or if it can be related both to the expression and the manifestation. > I need to think about this more, but I don't see how this lets us > provide a non-unit card view for users, which is what I was hoping we > were working toward. Although perhaps the idea is to build that on top > of the unit card view, after taking apart the records... It might wok, > I really want to try to model this. Wish we could get some folks > together for a 1/2 day somewhere and JUST DO IT. > > kc > > >> >> Riley, Jenn wrote: >>>> What the RDA folks (that is, the folks >>>> who have created RDA, the JSC members) said (some of them off-list to >>>> me), is that if your manifestation is an aggregate, then your >>>> Expression must be an equal aggregate. So the Expression is pretty >>>> much one-to-one with the Manifestation. (And I think we were all >>>> seeing a many-to-many.) >>>> >>> >>> I see this conclusion as RDA's, but not FRBR's. The FRBR report explicitly >>> says there can be a many-to-one relationship between Expressions and a >>> Manifestation (that is, a Manifestation can embody several >>> Expressions), and >>> the V/FRBR project takes that at face value and does not impose the >>> additional restriction that a Manifestation contains an equal >>> aggregate. RDA >>> may impose that restriction, but that's their implementation of FRBR, and >>> the V/FRBR project as *not* an RDA implementation doesn't feel >>> bound by that >>> decision. >>> >>> Obviously I think that RDA has made a mistake in adding in a requirement >>> that "if your manifestation is an aggregate, then your Expression >>> must be an >>> equal aggregate." But that's their business, I guess. >>> >>> Jenn >>> >>> ======================== >>> Jenn Riley >>> Metadata Librarian >>> Digital Library Program >>> Indiana University - Bloomington >>> Wells Library W501 >>> (812) 856-5759 >>> www.dlib.indiana.edu >>> >>> Inquiring Librarian blog: www.inquiringlibrarian.blogspot.com >>> >>> > > -- > Karen Coyle > [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net > ph: 1-510-540-7596 > m: 1-510-435-8234 > skype: kcoylenet > -- Karen Coyle [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet