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Have people found Django fairly usable without using its ORM features? I'm not a big ORM fan, and it seems that so many Python frameworks sort of fall over if you try to get around the ORM. It's a bit of a shame, because I like Python. I wish Bottle and Flask were a little easier to work with. It feels a little weird having to configure WSGI for each application. I love their minimalist approach to templating, though. Mark On Oct 29, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Genny Engel wrote: > I think the significant attributes of most programming languages are > adequately summarized here: > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html > > ________________________________________ > From: Code for Libraries [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of > William Sexton [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 7:24 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP vs. Python [was: Re: Django] > > I use Python and Django extensively, and think they're both great. > That said, also great is the very funny keynote by former flickr > engineer Cal Henderson at DjangoCon 2008, titled "Why I Hate > Django," which is on YouTube: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fr65PFqfk > > When he showed the slide I had to admit that the statement > > "-".join(array) > > is kind of a goofy way to do that, though maybe not "unforgivable." > Whenever I use join() now I chuckle a little in my mind. > > It's good to step back and re-evaluate your favorite tools from time- > to-time. If nothing else, the ability to analyze a platform for its > suitability to a need is key. > > Will > > > On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Bennett wrote: > >> Having used Zope (python based) as our WEB server of choice since >> 1998 I am >> urged to express my opinion that if you do choose to use python in >> your >> projects then use a service designed for python use such as Zope, >> Django, et >> al. Zope is normally run in front of Apache as a virtual host. >> >> If you are going to use python then Zope is an excellent choice for >> interacting with databases and using python to massage/manipulate >> results if >> you need complex results from the database data. I like that you >> can write >> sql queries just like you might use on the command line and save >> it as an >> individual object for use by any number of other objects. >> >> What may be a simple example to some is a tutorial quiz I wrote for >> the WEB. >> There are categories and each category has any number of questions >> along with >> the answers in the database. In the management portion, the >> administrator can >> choose which categories are active and how many questions out of >> the total >> available to pull from each category individually. When the quiz >> page is >> generated the correct number of questions are pulled randomly from >> the total >> active questions for each category, some questions can be set as >> inactive. >> >> There are "database connectors" for PostgreSQL, MySQL, Oracle, >> odbc, and >> others so you can choose any popular db or write your own >> connector. And >> there are python libraries written for these databases which prove >> very >> useful. >> >> The main thing I like about python is that the syntax pretty much >> forces your >> code to be readable by others because indention is part of the >> syntax rather >> than semicolons, parens, etc. >> >> I don't know PHP in detail but am learning more quickly because the >> University >> is "forcing" all departments to move to Drupal and we will be >> running our site >> on Drupal within a year probably although some administrative tasks >> will still >> be running on our Zope server. >> >> Thomas >> >> ps: remember my point is that "IF" you choose to use python this >> supports its >> use with databases and scripting. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday 27 October 2010 20:49:06 you wrote: >>> Olá, como vai? >>> >>> Luciano Ramalho <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> Actually, Python is a general purpose programming language. It >>>> was not >>>> created specifically for server side scripting like PHP was. But >>>> it is >>>> very suitable to that task. >>> >>> I'm not sure talking about what something used to be is as >>> interesting >>> as talking about what it is. Both Pyhton and PHP can share whatever >>> moniker we choose (scripting-language, programming language, >>> real-time, half-time, bytecoded, virtual, etc.). >>> >>>>> Not seen any scientific packages, but I've seen a few ray-tracers, >>>>> although they're all demo apps and fun toys (although I think that >>>>> applies to Python, too). >>>> >>>> No, that does not apply to Python. Python is widely used for >>>> hardcore >>>> scientific computing. >>> >>> I was referring to the ray-tracing part. >>> >>>> It is also the most important scripting language in large scale CGI >>>> settings >>> >>> Yes, Python is widely used for scripting up interfaces into other >>> more >>> complex systems. But rarely is the core of the thing written >>> entirely >>> in Python. >>> >>>>> Maybe your Google-foo is weak. :) >>>> >>>> Or maybe he's just realizing that outside of server side web >>>> scripting, PHP is just not so widely used. >>> >>> Absolutely, and fair enough. >>> >>>> Having used both languages, I discovered that Python is easier for >>>> most tasks, and one reason is that the libraries that come with >>>> Python >>>> are extremely robust, well tested and consistent. >>> >>> Hmm. PHP is extremely robust and well-tested, but yes, it's not all >>> that consistent, especially not before version 5.2+. However, things >>> have moved on, and with release 6 around the corner things will be >>> tighter still. Just like the first versions of Python were >>> interesting, so was PHP's, but where the biggest problem with the >>> evolution of PHP was the very fact that it was the most popular >>> language for rapid web development by far. >>> >>>> PHP is very >>>> practical for server-side web scripting, but it's libraries are >>>> unfortunately full of gotchas, traps and unexpected behaviour. >>> >>> There's gotchas in every language, even Python. >>> >>>> A key reason for that is the fact that Python has always had an >>>> exception-handling mechanism while PHP has grown something like >>>> that >>>> only a few years ago >>> >>> True enough. But earlier versions of any language are less desirable >>> than the latest versions, so I'm not sure this is a prevailing >>> argument for the horribleness of PHP or any language. These things >>> evolve. PHP 5.3+ and soon 6 are looking very good, indeed, but >>> yes, we >>> will just have to live with a poor reputation brought on by the big >>> number of users and the pre 5.2+ era. >>> >>>> So, I my opinion, PHP is great at what it does best: enabling quick >>>> server-side Web scripting on almost any hosting service on Earth. >>> >>> I'm fairly sure you can say that because you haven't done much other >>> kind of PHP work. :) >>> >>>> For everything else, it is very worthwhile to learn and use a >>>> general >>>> purpose dynamic language such as Python, Ruby or Perl. >>> >>> Of course. Developers should learn many of languages, and choose >>> wisely the language best suited to the problem at hand. >>> >>>> Sorry for the rant. I must confess I am a founder of the Brazilian >>>> Python Association and was its first president, so you can call >>>> me a >>>> Python advocate. >>> >>> No bias at all, really. :) >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Alex >>> >> >> -- >> ========================================== >> Thomas McMillan Grant Bennett Appalachian State University >> Operations & Systems Analyst P O Box 32026 >> University Library Boone, North >> Carolina 28608 >> (828) 262 6587 >> >> Library Systems Help Desk: https://www.library.appstate.edu/help/ >> ==========================================