I concur with Karen's (and Trevor's) comments below - there are different perspectives, at least based on my observations with our client constituency. Maybe if we did move the discussion upwards (less granularity, more inclusion) to 5 or so key points, we could be more open to each type of solution, thereby having a broader swath of options. On the other hand, if open source solutions are the de-facto information that we want to disseminate, that certainly locks out a number of large commercial archive installations - they are invested (literally millions of dollars) in these deployments, and won't be changing over to open-source anytime soon (if ever). One example off the top of my head is a record label that is "locked" into their current enterprise deployment - the archive is running on an "enterprise-class IT database", but many compromises have been made to accommodate the software, not the other way around - to me, that's a major concern. To the companies selling large IT database apps, it is an "inconvenience". That's not good from my perspective. I wonder if we'll ever be in a position to always be up-to-date with respect to commercial solutions as opposed to open-source - while there are several good resources on the web that show the most current roster of open-source projects, there are no real equivalents with respect to commercial apps. I'm sure the "commercial" providers like to "manage the message", which is a distinct differentiator - marketing vs. reality. I would like to add that one good way to "cull out" the commercial providers is to ask them about source-code escrow - we ran into that issue several times within the NARAS Deliverables document - commercial software at some level will always be a component of digital archiving, but some companies are more apt to agree to this than others. I think this is a decision point worthy of putting in our "top-level" guidelines. John John Spencer [log in to unmask] www.bmschace.com office 615.385.1251/ fax 615.385.0153 mobile 615.714.1199 On Feb 6, 2012, at 2:23 PM, Karen Cariani wrote: > I think these are all great points. I am a little concerned that we are > spending a lot of time narrowing our scope. I like Trevor's suggestion of > the 5 key points as guidelines. I'd like to see us start to generate a > list of people to talk to and start scheduling those discussions. I think > issues will become more clearly defined as we have those discussions. > > Karen > > On 2/6/12 1:22 PM, "Owens, Trevor" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Thanks Andrea and Mark. >> >> Great points. I see the value of working toward a broader decision tree >> that is not open source specific. At the same time I could see that >> getting us away from the initial interest in Open Source too. I also see >> some default value to scoping these kinds of things as tightly as we can >> to make them more manageable. >> >> Does it help the situation if we think of what we would produce as >> something other than a decision tree? What if instead it was something >> like "5 key issues when considering open source software as part of >> preservation and access infrastructure." In that case, we would still >> focus in on the issues related to open source, but wouldn't necessarily >> need to branch out into broader comparative issues. >> >> I would be interested to get more input from the group on this. What do >> we think would be the most useful here? Further, what do we think is >> tightly scoped enough in this case that it remains doable. >> >> Best, Trevor >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: The NDSA infrastructure working group list >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of >> Goethals, Andrea >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 4:24 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group Call >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> Good point. I think I got confused about whether we were specifically >> trying to focus on open source solutions or not. >> >> Andrea >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: The NDSA infrastructure working group list [mailto:NDSA- >>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Evans >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:49 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group >>> Call >>> >>> Andrea, >>> >>> The "Buy" option suggest that its a decision to use commercial >>> solution or services, which could be built off either open source, >>> proprietary or hybrid components. The essence being that its not a >>> decision to completely make use of open source technologies. >>> >>> Therefore If we are including "Buy" then I think the decision tree >>> should not be limited to open source only. >>> >>> M >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mark Evans >>> Digital Archiving Practice Manager >>> Tessella Inc >>> 51 Monroe Street, Suite 702, Rockville, MD 20850, USA >>> E: [log in to unmask], T: (1) 240 403-7502, C: (1) 240 401 6256, >>> F: >>> (1) 240 403-7507 >>> >>> http://www.digital-preservation.com >>> >>> >>> This message is commercial in confidence and may be privileged. It is >>> intended for the addressee(s) only. Access to this message by anyone >>> else is unauthorized and strictly prohibited. If you have received >>> this message in error, please inform the sender immediately. Please >>> note that messages sent or received by the Tessella e-mail system may >>> be monitored and stored in an information retrieval system. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Goethals, Andrea" <[log in to unmask]> >>> Sent by: The NDSA infrastructure working group list >>> <[log in to unmask]> >>> 02/03/2012 03:33 PM >>> Please respond to >>> The NDSA infrastructure working group list >>> <[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> >>> To >>> [log in to unmask] >>> cc >>> >>> Subject >>> Re: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group Call >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Karen, Trevor and Jefferson - thanks for getting the project scope >>> started. I looked at the scoping the project section and made a few >>> purely >>> syntactic edits. When I got to the third point I started to word-smith >>> the >>> description but then realized I was confused and left it half done. I >>> wasn't sure what the decision support tool was going to cover. Is it >>> the >>> key decision points when deciding whether to build, buy or adopt open >>> source solutions; or is it the key decision points when deciding >>> whether >>> to build, buy or adopt open source or non-open source solutions? In >>> other >>> words, is the decision whether to build, buy or adopt, and the decision >>> that it be open-source is assumed? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Andrea >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: The NDSA infrastructure working group list [mailto:NDSA- >>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bailey, >>>> Jefferson >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 1:18 PM >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: [NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE] Notes from the 1/31 Working Group Call >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> We have posted draft notes from Tuesday's call on the wiki. There are >>>> available at this link and are pasted full-text at the bottom of this >>>> email: >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.loc.gov/extranet/wiki/osi/ndiip/ndsa/index.php?title=Tuesday >>>> ,_January_31,_2012 >>>> >>>> Feel free to tweak or make edits to the notes on the wiki page. >>>> >>>> Also, we have posted a first-draft towards scoping out a baseline >>>> description of our OSS project. Please take a look and edit or append >>>> the wiki or discuss over the listserv. The current text can be found >>> in >>>> the "Scoping the Project" section on project wiki page: >>>> >>>> >>> http://www.loc.gov/extranet/wiki/osi/ndiip/ndsa/index.php?title=Open_So >>>> urce_Software >>>> >>>> Lastly, our next call will be Tuesday, February 28, 2012 at 2pm EST. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Karen, Trevor, & Jefferson >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> Infrastructure Working Group Call, January 31, 2012, 2pm-3pm >>>> >>>> ==Attending== >>>> >>>> *Trevor Owens, Library of Congress >>>> *Karen Cariani, WGBH >>>> *Dave MacCarn, WGBH >>>> *Jefferson Bailey, Library of Congress >>>> *Aaron Trehub, Auburn University >>>> *Mitch Brodsky, NY Philharmonic >>>> *John Spenser, BMS Chase >>>> *Martin Jacobson, NARA >>>> *Michael Sterling, Academy of Motion Pictures >>>> *Corey Snavely, University of Michigan >>>> *Micah Altman, Harvard University (soon to be MIT) >>>> *Nicole Scalessa, Library Company of Philadelphia >>>> *Dean Farrell, UNC >>>> *Elizabeth Perkes, Utah State Archives >>>> *Bob Downs, Columbia University >>>> *Joe Pawletko, NYU >>>> *Dan Dodge, Thompson Reuters >>>> *Priscilla Caplan, FCLA >>>> *Andrea Goethels, Harvard University >>>> *Linda Tadic, Audiovisual Archive Network >>>> *Shaun Nicholson, Michigan State >>>> *Martin Halbert, UNT >>>> >>>> ==Agenda== >>>> *Update on Storage Report activities >>>> *Discussion of our OSS project >>>> *Update on other NDSA WG activities >>>> >>>> ==Storage Report== >>>> *Two posts have been published on the NDIIPP blog highlighting and >>>> analyzing results from the NDSA storage survey. >>>> *Access: http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservation/2011/12/diversity- >>> of- >>>> access-to-digital-preservation-collections-first-results-from-the- >>> ndsa- >>>> storage-survey/ >>>> *Cloud: http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservation/2012/01/partly- >>> cloudy- >>>> trends-in-distributed-and-remote-preservation-storage-more-results- >>>> from-the-ndsa-storage-survey/ >>>> *Three more are planned: one (in draft form now) on fixity, one on >>>> administrative/managerial complexities, and one summary post that >>> will >>>> also included any stats/results that didn't fall into the previous >>> four >>>> posts. >>>> *We are still tossing around ideas for the form of a final product >>> from >>>> this project, so ping the list if you have ideas or would like to be >>>> involved in that effort. >>>> >>>> ==OSS Project== >>>> Discussion: >>>> *We are continuing to brainstorm on potential questions and who >>> exactly >>>> to pose them to as far as decision-making around open-source software >>>> use for digital preservation. >>>> *There is still a lack of clarity on who we want to invite to comment >>>> and how we proceed developing question. >>>> *One idea is to develop questions for ourselves first (meaning the >>>> working group), then refine the question, then post to the NDSA >>>> membership (much like the storage survey). >>>> *Would also be useful to talk to folks who are experts or have >>>> experience in this area to tease out issues before writing questions. >>>> *Are our questions around decision-making for using, or for >>>> participating in and contributing to projects? >>>> *One potential approach is to look at thinks like Lyasis' FLOSS >>> project >>>> and other the other resources on the wiki. Then we can comment on >>> what >>>> features or formats we like from those materials materials. >>>> *We need to figure out the scope of the questions -- should we make >>>> distinctions between types of software (there's a difference between >>>> file-renaming software and a full repository) - what's our focus? >>>> *One use-case: enterprise tools for long-term access/preservation. >>> That >>>> is a decision that involves a different time horizon (for long-term >>>> preservation in memory institutions) than a commercial, enterprise- >>> wide >>>> solution. >>>> *Also the case of OSS on top of commercial piece (combination of >>> build, >>>> buy, and adopt). >>>> *Also the case of "commercial open source" which is increasingly >>>> prevalent, underlying OSS but with pay-for features or support or >>>> implementation on top of it. >>>> *It would work best to hone the focus before we begin thinking of >>>> questions and/or communities/institutions to query. >>>> >>>> ==Other NDSA news== >>>> >>>> ==Innovation news== >>>> * Innovation members are planning on participating in the Google >>> Summer >>>> of Code project. If any Infrastructure members would like to take >>> part >>>> (which involves mentoring a student developer/programmer who will >>> write >>>> code for an open-source software project), contact Jefferson or >>> Trevor >>>> and we will provide more info on the project & requirements. >>>> *Innovation Awards: the annual awards program will be announced soon >>>> and more information will be disseminated NDSA-wide. Please submit, >>> and >>>> encourage others to submit, nominations for people, projects, >>>> institutions, or students/educators demonstrating innovation in the >>>> field of digital preservation and stewardship. >>>> >>>> ==Standards== >>>> *There is a "wiki project" in development to document digital >>>> preservation standards and guidelines on Wikipedia. >>>> *Another project is to conduct a staffing survey to see how >>>> institutions have staffed themselves for digital preservation: >>> numbers >>>> of employees, organizational structure, skills expected of >>>> employees/job applications, their ideal staffing levels, their >>>> projected staffing levels, etc. The survey will be of both the NDSA >>>> community and external institutions. >>>> *Another project is to conduct a survey of what standards are >>> currently >>>> in use around digital preservation tasks at NDSA institution and then >>>> track this information over time to determine trends, etc. >>>> >>>> ==Outreach== >>>> *Creating "digital preservation in a box," a collection of resources >>>> for digital preservation. >>>> *Storytellers series, which collects unique or evocative stories >>> about >>>> digital preservation. >>>> >>>> ==Content== >>>> *Working with WordPress to develop an "opt-in" plug-in which blog >>>> creators can activate to note their content is available/allowable >>> for >>>> harvesting. >>>> >>>> ==Action items== >>>> *Trevor/Micah will write a short, one paragraph statement scoping out >>> a >>>> baseline description for considering OSS when building digital >>>> preservation infrastructure for long-term access & preservation >>> [done] >>>> >>> >>> http://www.loc.gov/extranet/wiki/osi/ndiip/ndsa/index.php?title=Open_Sour >>> ce_Software > >>>> *The group will review text posted to the wiki and comment over the >>>> listserv. >>>> *The group will continue reviewing, commenting on, and adding to the >>>> OSS resources currently posted to the wiki, especially anything that >>>> provides a good example or model of what we hope to provide. >>>> *Related: The Digital Dilemma 2 paper is now available for download >>>> *Next call will be Tuesday, February 28, 2012 at 2pm EST >>>> >>>> ############################ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE list: >>>> write to: mailto:NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE-SIGNOFF- >>>> [log in to unmask] >>>> or click the following link: >>>> http://list.digitalpreservation.gov/SCRIPTS/WA- >>> DIGITAL.EXE?SUBED1=NDSA- >>>> INFRASTRUCTURE&A=1 >>> >>> ############################ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE list: >>> write to: >>> mailto:[log in to unmask] >>> or click the following link: >>> http://list.digitalpreservation.gov/SCRIPTS/WA-DIGITAL.EXE?SUBED1=NDSA- >>> INFRASTRUCTURE&A=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> ############################ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE list: >>> write to: mailto:NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE-SIGNOFF- >>> [log in to unmask] >>> or click the following link: >>> http://list.digitalpreservation.gov/SCRIPTS/WA-DIGITAL.EXE?SUBED1=NDSA- >>> INFRASTRUCTURE&A=1 >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE list: >> write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] >> or click the following link: >> http://list.digitalpreservation.gov/SCRIPTS/WA-DIGITAL.EXE?SUBED1=NDSA-INF >> RASTRUCTURE&A=1 >> >> ############################ >> >> To unsubscribe from the NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE list: >> write to: >> mailto:[log in to unmask] >> or click the following link: >> http://list.digitalpreservation.gov/SCRIPTS/WA-DIGITAL.EXE?SUBED1=NDSA-INF >> RASTRUCTURE&A=1 > > ############################ > > To unsubscribe from the NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE list: > write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] > or click the following link: > http://list.digitalpreservation.gov/SCRIPTS/WA-DIGITAL.EXE?SUBED1=NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE&A=1 ############################ To unsubscribe from the NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE list: write to: mailto:[log in to unmask] or click the following link: http://list.digitalpreservation.gov/SCRIPTS/WA-DIGITAL.EXE?SUBED1=NDSA-INFRASTRUCTURE&A=1