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I'm all for people creating new social structures to move themselves forward doing it however they see fit. The internet is a big place, and there's room for more. In this case, though, I hope it will be an "and" operation, not an exclusive "or". I would be happy to hear that a new group formed and that it's going well. I would be disappointed if people in that group ended up moving away from this one big group. It happens, and I'd get over it, sure, but it'd still be disappointing. We gain something by gathering together like we have here. It's not exclusive, nor should it be. But code4lib has added so much to me and my work that I know how much I stand to lose if we do not also keep working to stick together, however difficult that can be sometimes. Respectfully yours, -Dan The way to make that happen is to make the larger group welcoming, fair, non-hostile. I've seen some real hostility around this idea of creating a place for women -- not just people thinking it might not be as good as being a single group, but real hostility. I suspect there was less hostility about setting up a Python group, or about setting up local groups. Removing the "difficulty" is the best way to keep everyone together. I definitely do not feel, today, like I'm welcomed, mainly because of the strength of the arguments against an idea that came from women. And remember, there wasn't a felt need to create an anti-harassment policy against Pythoners. These are not analogous situations. kc -- Karen Coyle [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet