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Hello, "Those not well versed in Geometry shall not enter" -Plato- Thanks, Cornel Darden Jr. MSLIS Librarian Kennedy-King College City Colleges of Chicago Work 773-602-5449 Cell 708-705-2945 On Feb 22, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I do not find drawing a line between philosophy and mathematics to be > useful, as they have pretty vast overlap. Plato and Aristotle talked > about math, whether they called it math or not. Whether set theory has > its roots in math or philosophy is irrelevant. > > I don't believe that I said that mathematics was essential to > programming, and I did not intend to imply that. I have certainly > found it useful, but having said that, I find everything that I > studied in school, with the possible exception of weight training, > useful in almost every endeavor. (My other PE, skiing, is quite > useful) > > I did say that logic is needed, and I'll stand by that. It doesn't > matter where you get it. > > On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> On 2/22/13 8:39 AM, Cary Gordon wrote: >>> >>> While comprehensive specific math skill set might not be necessary in >>> programming, an understanding of mathematics beyond arithmetic can be >>> very useful. Relational database theory, for example, maps pretty >>> neatly to set theory. >> >> >> In fact, Cary, you can do relational databases just fine without set theory. >> If it maps to set theory when you do know it, that's fine. But in all the >> years in which I've worked on databases, only one person involved in the >> design was a mathematician, and she didn't work directly on defining the >> database design. Just because some of coding can be explained with math >> doesn't mean that you *need* math to explain it. Mathematics did not invent >> the concept of sets; you can go back to Aristotle and find, pre-mathematical >> set theory, a good philosophical basis for that thinking. >> >> >> >>> >>> Mathematics in general delivers a lot of insight into dealing with >>> complex patterns. >> >> >> As do music, language, clothing manufacture and building. And if you may >> recall, the punch card and the first programming came from weaving >> machinery. There are lots of activities that use complex patterns. >> >> >>> >>> Is a solid math background necessary to program? Of course not. Sooner >>> or later though, programmers need a solid understanding of logic. >> >> Yes, but there are many sources for that solid understanding. To insist that >> the understanding has to come from mathematics is to essentially take a very >> narrow view of human thought. This is one of the things that bothers me >> about some proponents of mathematics: there seems to be a view that math is >> the one true approach. If that were the case, our world would be sadly >> uniform and uncreative. >> >> kc >> >> >> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Cary >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2/21/13 7:48 PM, Emily Morton-Owens wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This was just the right thing to say, because he was connecting it to >>>>> something that I consider myself talented at (languages), rather than >>>>> something I don't (math). >>>> >>>> >>>> I want to clear up the "math is hard" and "programming is math" myths. >>>> First, the ratio of women to men in graduate math programs is approaching >>>> 50/50, although women are still struggling to be hired and gain tenure in >>>> math departments. So "math is hard" for many of us, but it's not >>>> necessarily >>>> a gender thing. (I'm looking for the cite for this -- I've done too much >>>> random reading recently and didn't mark this. May be book below.) >>>> >>>> Math skills are not required for programming. There was a time when >>>> silicon >>>> valley was desperate for programmers, and some companies advertised that >>>> they were looking for folks with music skills and they would teach them >>>> programming -- because they had found that musicians make for good >>>> programmers. It's the ability to deal with complex patterns that makes a >>>> difference. Which is why it annoys me when programming instruction begins >>>> with a list of mathematical functions that most programmers will never >>>> need. >>>> >>>> I believe that Rosy was the first to recommend this, but the IEEE >>>> publication: Gender Codes - why women are leaving computing/ edited by >>>> Thomas Misa, 2010 is essential reading. You can get it as a Kindle or >>>> Nook >>>> book. isbn 978-0470-59719-4 (paper) 978-1118-03513-9 (ebook) >>>> >>>> kc >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm teaching systems analysis at SILS (UNC CH) this semester. >>>>>> >>>>>> Though the course is required for the IS degree, it's not required for >>>>>> the >>>>>> LS degree. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, the majority of my students this semester are LS. And the >>>>>> vast >>>>>> majority are women. >>>>>> >>>>>> Apropos of the part of the thread that dealt with numbers: >>>>>> >>>>>> For those of you who came into this community and at some point went >>>>>> through a MSLS or MSIS program I am wondering if there are things I >>>>>> could >>>>>> try to do that might have an impact on better aligning the ratio of men >>>>>> to >>>>>> women in code4lib and the technology end of the field in general to >>>>>> that >>>>>> in the general population? >>>>>> >>>>>> Was there a moment of clarity? A person who said or modeled the right >>>>>> thing? A project that helped uncover a skill you didn't know you had? >>>>>> >>>>>> And, I am not just interested in what I can do through one class, but >>>>>> also >>>>>> what the curriculum and school could do more holistically. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Tim >>>> -- >>>> Karen Coyle >>>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net >>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >>>> m: 1-510-435-8234 >>>> skype: kcoylenet >> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net >> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >> m: 1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet > > > > -- > Cary Gordon > The Cherry Hill Company > http://chillco.com