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Good morning, Josh and everyone, and thanks for the shoutout, Andromeda! Josh, I didn't take your OP as abrasive at all. We've ALL been up on that ledge, man! If you know me at all, you know I'm pretty pro-Drupal. Pretty sure I still have KoolAid stains on my face. This is mainly because I'm a developer, not a programmer. Ten years ago, I was a reference librarian who stumbled into web site development and management because my colleague who had taken care of our website left the organization. This is still a pretty common scenario for many of us working full-time on library web sites now. I have absolutely felt all of the pain that is described here--the theme of my career in recent years is "inherited hacked Drupal 6 sites"--and I take the point that the Drupal learning curve can be as serious an investment as learning some of the other languages/frameworks/options mentioned. But. That said, as far as the "bus scenario" (Josh! Nooooooooo!) goes, a web site developed in The Drupal Way will be much easier for someone else who is Not A Programmer to take over or assist managing. I assume you're a solo developer at your organization? If yes, others could continue to manage things even if, say, you wanted to do something crazy like take a long vacation. Or help you out with stuff through the UI. I have also inherited several homegrown CMSs over the years, and I would always take (weeeelll, with ONE particularly nasty exception) a Drupal site over that because I have some frame of reference versus something completely hand written by one person. Also, how future-proof is something you'd write yourself? Are you willing to take on the security implications and commit the time (and will your management support your time used that way--don't burn yourself out!) and effort keeping your code up-to-date, or would it be better to know that you can lean on the Community for that update to core at the end of each month? All things to consider, and as pro-Drupal as I am, I freely admit that it's not always the right choice. Josh, can you describe some of the functionality that you're concerned about? One of my biggest concerns right now (that I think related directly to what you're experiencing in your house of cards scenario) about Drupal use in libraries is that library-specific module development isn't happening in the "official" Drupal way, by modules getting vetted and contributed back to drupal.org. (And I know that this is complicated; a colleague and I did some research on the barriers to contributing code back.) Anyone with basic knowledge of the Drupal UI can build a pretty complex site, including adding modules, but if the modules don't exist, non-programmers aren't left with much. I'm especially concerned about this as D6 drifts toward EOL, since, the last time I really tallied things up, anyway, a lot of the really cool stuff that had been developed for libraries as modules in D6 hasn't made it to D7, with D8 now looming for late 2014/early 2015. (Previous practice has been to retire the second version behind the new release, i.e., 5 was laid to rest as 7 came out, although there has been some discussion about extending the live of 6 because there's such a critical mass of sites still using it.) Some of my evidence for this is anecdotal, too; at Drupalcons in Denver and Portland, and other birds-of-a-feather Drupal events, I've asked, "Hey, what if we all coordinated and developed a module for X?" (X=any number of common web functionality that libraries of any type would find useful.) And then several people in the room raise their hands and say, "Yeah, I've done that/I'm working on that!" I ask them if it's on d.o, and they say "No, but I'll share it..." and then their voices kinda drift off and they stop making eye contact. The thing is, if the code is "just" put on GitHub (I've got no beef with GitHub, but it's an audience/user problem) or shared in any way other The Drupal Way, you've lost a whole set of potential non-programmer users. (Sidenote: this is on my mind because I'm writing a proposal for the journal about library-specific Drupal module development. I think I've just written a good chunk of it. Thanks, Josh!) Finally, I can also add, FWIW, that all of these pains are felt by developers outside of our library sphere as well. I worked briefly for a Drupal dev firm, and the amount of time we spent discussing whether or not we should still be a dedicated Drupal shop, or build/look into other frameworks, surprised me. The split, as you might imagine, was typically between the backend developers and sysadmins who were tired of all the things discussed here, and the developers and graphic design/developer/UX folks who relied on their existing knowledge of the Drupal UI and theme layer to get their work done efficiently. Nina Nina McHale Digital Experience Consultant Colorado State Library ________________________________________ From: Code for Libraries [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Joshua Welker [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 8:47 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Very frustrated with Drupal Thank you all for the responses. I hope my original email did not come off as too abrasive. The issue for me is that I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly is the use case for Drupal. Do you want a dead-simple website? Use Wordpress. Do you want to add some complex custom apps? Use a framework. Do you want the worst of both worlds? Use Drupal. Getting a non-trivial Drupal site up and running requires as much work as learning a full-fledged framework like Rails, Laravel, or Django. And the experience you gain using Drupal is not going to carry over at all into any future non-Drupal endeavors because the Drupal platform is completely unique and doesn't seem to follow any basic paradigms like MVC. When doing something like basic data manipulation requires overriding core functions using custom PHP functions in my theme, the entire point of using a CMS in the first place has just been defeated. If I get hit by a bus, not only will someone have to relearn Drupal and all its modules, but they will also have to wade through my spaghetti-code efforts at patching functionality into Drupal. What I would love is a CMS based on plain SQL tables, ActiveRecord, and simple CRUD controls instead of abstract "entities" and "fields" that try to be everything to everyone (and fail to be anything for anyone). But I don't think such a thing exists, so I am interested in rolling my own with a framework. Right now, my framework choices are narrowed down to Ruby on Rails, Laravel (PHP), Django (Python), and Flask (Python). For anyone who has used these, do you have any insight into how maintainable your projects are and how easily they are managed/inherited by others? Josh On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Jason Bengtson <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > When I came into this position I inherited some work the former tech > manager had done in installing and experimenting with Drupal as a tool to > replace our current CMS-less ColdFusion environment. I also quickly grew > unhappy with it. I've been experimenting with MODX, which I like so far. If > you're a PHP developer, MODX will be of particular interest (and PHP is a > pretty common server-side technology if you worry about the bus factor). I > haven't had as much time to mess with it as I'd like, but I've built some > wireframes with it and so far I like it. > > I second the low quality of most of the commercial, enterprise stuff. We > used Cascade Server at UNM and it was absolutely wretched. It's been a long > time, but when I last built a WordPress site I remember that as being easy > to use and I think it's gotten more flexible/powerful. I've got a fiend > who's really sold on it and HAM/TMC uses it for their website. > > Best regards, > > > > *Jason Bengtson, MLIS, MA* > > Head of Library Computing and Information Systems > > Assistant Professor, Graduate College > > Department of Health Sciences Library and Information Management > > University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center > > 405-271-2285, opt. 5 > > 405-271-3297 (fax) > > *[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>* > > *http://library.ouhsc.edu <http://library.ouhsc.edu/>* > > *www.jasonbengtson.com <http://www.jasonbengtson.com/>* > > > > NOTICE: > This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is > addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure. If the reader of this e-mail is not the > intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the > message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please > immediately notify us by replying to the original message at the listed > email address. Thank You. > <[log in to unmask]> > > > On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Jason Sherman <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > Joshua, > > > > From my perspective, the module ecosystem is the greatest strength that > > Drupal has. Modularity is one of the central design goals of the system, > > so if you if you want to avoid all third-party modules, you aren't going > to > > get any real advantage over something like wordpress. Having said that, > > I've experienced module dependency hell with Drupal, and it can be > > frustrating. > > > > I tend to take a hybrid approach. I try to limit myself to just a few > > modules with any site. Things like Views, cck, chaos tools, and entity > > reference are modules I use for almost any site. For functionality that > is > > specific to the site, I usually create a local module to store code and > > configuration. I find that this kind of setup gives me the most of the > > advantages of the modules, while limiting the potential for update > > problems. > > > > Another option that a lot of people use is drupal distributions. These > come > > with quite a bit of customization for specific use cases ready out of the > > box. I haven't used a distribution, so I can't speak to their > usefulness. > > I'm sure that their quality can vary just as much as modules and themes. > > > > Now for something completely different. Depending on what your > requirements > > are, you may have better luck using a narrower-purpose tool for the job. > > Have you considered something like SubjectPlus? > > http://www.subjectsplus.com/ > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:35 PM, Joshua Welker <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > Warning: incoming wall of text. > > > > > > I've been working for the past several months on building a library > > website > > > with Drupal. This is my second try building a website with Drupal. I > > chose > > > Drupal for two main reasons: CCK/content types, and its ubiquity in the > > > library community. > > > > > > Theme development was going relatively well, if a little overly > > > complicated. But once I started trying to do anything beyond developing > > > static pages, I have become more and more frustrated with Drupal. > > > > > > Drupal supports custom content types out-of-the-box, which is great, > but > > if > > > you want to actually do anything with that custom content other than > have > > > it function as a plain page, you have to use the Views module. Views is > > > great, but views can easily become very complicated, with custom > > rewrites, > > > grouping, relations, contextual filters, etc. Plus, a lot of > > functionality > > > in Views requires more modules (for instance, basic data manipulation). > > > This is to build rather run-of-the-mill list features like a database > > list > > > or a list of events. And a lot of the advanced features in Views > require > > a > > > solid understanding of SQL (groups, distinct, joins, etc), which kind > of > > > defeats the notion that it is easy for non-developers to administer. > > > > > > Now, at this point, I have modules extending my modules. And those > > modules > > > have multiple dependencies on other modules. I am getting worried now. > It > > > feels like my website is a house of cards. I've run into several > > instances > > > already where one of these plugins is updated and breaks compatibility > > with > > > the whole stack, and there is nothing to do in this case but open an > > issue > > > on the project tracker and pray for the best. I have looked into > building > > > my own modules, but the umpteen APIs and hooks required to do something > > > simple as perform some regex on field data completely overwhelmed me > > (and I > > > am fairly experience with web app development). > > > > > > It's not just Views, either. Anything more complicated than static > pages > > > and navigation menus requires relying on the module ecosystem. > > > > > > Not only is the whole thing quite precarious, but it defeats one of the > > two > > > main purposes of a CMS: ease of administration. I want to know that if > I > > > get hit by a bus tomorrow, someone will be able to come in and take > over > > > without too much difficulty. But when I go back and look at my views, I > > can > > > sometimes barely understand the work I did a week ago. It is very > > difficult > > > to keep straight which functions are coming from which modules, and all > > > those modules have separate (often poor) documentation. > > > > > > At this point, I am seriously contemplating dumping Drupal and moving > to > > a > > > full-fledged framework like Django, Flask, or Laravel and adding some > > > WYSIWYG CRUD controls for pseudo-CMS functionality. ActiveRecord-like > > > systems are much easier to use IMO than fiddling for hours with Views, > > and > > > I have full control of what is happening. I honestly think it would be > > just > > > as easy for someone to inherit a custom-built framework app as it would > > be > > > to inherit my already-convoluted Drupal site. At least the framework is > > > well-documented and should allow my app to be understandable to anyone > > with > > > some programming experience. > > > > > > Does anyone want to talk me off the ledge here? I know a lot of you are > > > using Drupal for your websites. What are the killer features that keep > > you > > > using Drupal? If any of you have experience building websites using > > > frameworks, what are your experiences? I really want to like Drupal, > but > > it > > > seems to be more trouble than it's worth. > > > > > > -- > > > Josh Welker > > > Information Technology Librarian > > > James C. Kirkpatrick Library > > > University of Central Missouri > > > Warrensburg, MO 64093 > > > JCKL 2260 > > > 660.543.8022 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jason Sherman > > Systems Librarian > > University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma > > 405.574.1340 > > > -- Josh Welker Information Technology Librarian James C. Kirkpatrick Library University of Central Missouri Warrensburg, MO 64093 JCKL 2260 660.543.8022