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Tom, Google will not tell you. The entirety of how Google search works is a trade secret. We don't know the algorithm for ranking, and we don't know what information they glean from web pages -- and they are unlikely to tell. It is a constant on the schema.org discussion list that developers want to know what Google/Bing/Yahoo/Yandex will do with specific information in the web pages, and it is a constant that the reps there reply: we cannot tell you that. The only way to find out is to code and observe. kc On 5/6/15 7:00 AM, Tom Keays wrote: > I'd like to find out how and why Google is parsing this information. If you > go to the the SFPL hours page (first link in the Google results), and look > at the source code, this is all you find. > http://sfpl.org/index.php?pg=0100000101 > Is the ID in the DIV sufficient? It would be nice to have a set of use > cases to work from. > > Currently, I'm generating a weekly hours box by pulling JSONP from the > hours API of LibCal. I could easily output this in schema.org format (and > probably will now), but can Google pick up the information from the DOM if > it is delivered as JSON and transformed into HTML? > > <div id="library-hours"> > <h2>Hours</h2> > <table class="hours" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> > <tr> > <th>Sun</th> > <th>Mon</th> > <th>Tue</th> > <th class="today">Wed</th> > <th>Thu</th> > <th>Fri</th> > <th>Sat</th> > </tr> > <tr> > <td>12-5</td> > <td>10-6</td> > <td>9-8</td> > <td class="today">9-8</td> > <td>9-8</td> > <td>12-6</td> > <td>10-6</td> > </tr> > </table> > </div> > > > On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Charlie, I don't know of any libraries that have used schema.org for >> their web site - perhaps others do. If it is used, it should be "picked up" >> the next time the search engines index the site. What the search engines do >> with schema.org is not guaranteed, but can be observed. It is not >> guaranteed because none of the search engines will say what they do, as >> that is considered a trade secret (especially from each other). >> >> However, as locations and hours are important for their commercial >> customers (stores, restaurants, etc.) I would expect that to be picked up >> as a matter of course. Note that already locations and hours for some >> businesses do show in the search engines, and that is for sites that are >> not yet using schema.org, so the engines have some way of picking that up >> from the HTML. The Google side-bar "knowledge graph" for my local libraries >> shows " Hours < >> https://www.google.com/search?sa=X&biw=1299&bih=561&q=san+francisco+public+library+larkin+street+hours&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDgzYHnxCXfq6-gVlZhbF5sZZ0drKVfk5-cmJJZn4enGGVkV9aVBzLKeznIsHxlTMy2S10V0iJwvZlMgBPWBDOSAAAAA&ei=qhlKVcKWJ8b7oQS65oCQCA&ved=0CJgBEOgTMBA>: >> >> Open today · 9:00 am – 8:00 pm <javascript:void(0)> >> " but I have no idea where that comes from. >> >> kc >> >> >> On 5/6/15 5:22 AM, Charlie Morris wrote: >> >>> I'm curious, Karen, Ethan or anyone else, do you know of any examples of >>> libraries that have implemented schema.org or RDFa for hours data and >>> have >>> noticed that Google or some other search engine has picked it up (i.e., >>> correctly displaying that data as part of the search results)? And if so, >>> how quickly will Google or the like pickup on changes to hours (i.e., >>> shifting between semesters or unplanned changes)? >>> >>> On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Ethan Gruber <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> +1 on the RDFa and schema.org. For those that don't know the library URL >>>> off-hand, it is much easier to find a library website by Googling than it >>>> is to go through the central university portal, and the hours will show >>>> up >>>> at the top of the page after having been harvested by search engines. >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Note that library hours is one of the possible bits of information that >>>>> could be encoded as RDFa in the library web site, thus making it >>>>> possible >>>>> to derive library hours directly from the listing of hours on the web >>>>> >>>> site >>>> >>>>> rather than keeping a separate list. Schema.org does have the elements >>>>> >>>> such >>>> >>>>> that hours can be encoded. This would mean that hours could show in the >>>>> display of the library's catalog entry on Google, Yahoo and Bing. Being >>>>> available directly through the search engines might be sufficient, not >>>>> necessitating creating yet-another-database for that data. >>>>> >>>>> Schema.org uses a restaurant as its opening hours example, but much of >>>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>>> data would be the same for a library: >>>>> >>>>> <div vocab="http://schema.org/" typeof="Restaurant"> >>>>> <span property="name">GreatFood</span> >>>>> <div property="aggregateRating" typeof="AggregateRating"> >>>>> <span property="ratingValue">4</span> stars - >>>>> based on <span property="reviewCount">250</span> reviews >>>>> </div> >>>>> <div property="address" typeof="PostalAddress"> >>>>> <span property="streetAddress">1901 Lemur Ave</span> >>>>> <span property="addressLocality">Sunnyvale</span>, >>>>> <span property="addressRegion">CA</span> <span >>>>> property="postalCode">94086</span> >>>>> </div> >>>>> <span property="telephone">(408) 714-1489</span> >>>>> <a property="url" href="http://www.dishdash.com">www.greatfood.com >>>>> </a> >>>>> Hours: >>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Sa 11:00-14:30">Mon-Sat >>>>> 11am >>>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>>> 2:30pm >>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Mo-Th 17:00-21:30">Mon-Thu >>>>> 5pm - >>>>> 9:30pm >>>>> <meta property="openingHours" content="Fr-Sa 17:00-22:00">Fri-Sat >>>>> 5pm - >>>>> 10:00pm >>>>> Categories: >>>>> <span property="servesCuisine"> >>>>> Middle Eastern >>>>> </span>, >>>>> <span property="servesCuisine"> >>>>> Mediterranean >>>>> </span> >>>>> Price Range: <span property="priceRange">$$</span> >>>>> Takes Reservations: Yes >>>>> </div> >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that using schema.org would get more bang for the buck >>>>> -- >>>>> it would get into the search engines and could also be aggregated into >>>>> whatever database is needed. As we've seen with OCLC, having a separate >>>>> listing is likely to mean that the data will be out of date. >>>>> >>>>> kc >>>>> >>>>> On 5/5/15 2:19 PM, nitin arora wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I can't see they distinguished between public libraries and other types >>>>> on >>>>> their campaign page. >>>>>> They say " all libraries" as far as I can see. >>>>>> So I suppose then that this is true for "all libraries": >>>>>> "Libraries offer a space anyone can enter, where money isn't exchanged, >>>>>> and >>>>>> documentation doesn't have to be shown." >>>>>> Who knew fines and library/student-IDs were a thing of the past? >>>>>> >>>>>> The only data sets I can find where they got the 17,000 number is for >>>>>> public libraries: >>>>>> http://www.imls.gov/research/pls_data_files.aspx >>>>>> Maybe I missed something. >>>>>> There is an hours field on one of the CSVs I downloaded, etc for 2012 >>>>>> >>>>> data >>>>> (the most recent I could find). >>>>>> Asking 10k for something targeted for completion in June and without a >>>>>> grasp on what types of libraries there are and how volatile the hours >>>>>> information is (especially in crisis) ... >>>>>> Sounds naive at best, sketchy at worst. >>>>>> >>>>>> The "flexible funding" button says "this campaign will receive all >>>>>> funds >>>>>> raised even if it does not reach its goals". >>>>>> >>>>>> "The value of these places for youth cannot be underestimated." >>>>>> So is the value of a quick buck ... >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 4:53 PM, McCanna, Terran < >>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not at all surprised that this doesn't already exist, and even if >>>>>> >>>>>>> OCLC's was available, I'd be willing to bet it was out of date. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Public library hours, especially in underfunded areas, may fluctuate >>>>>>> depending on funding cycles, seasons (whether school is in or out), >>>>>>> >>>>>> etc., >>>>> not to mention closing/reopening/moving because of old buildings that >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> to be updated. We have around 280 locations in our consortium and we >>>>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>> to rely on self-reporting to find out if their hours change. We >>>>>> certainly >>>>> don't have staff time to check every one of their web sites on regular >>>>>>> basis, I can't imagine keeping track of 17,000! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Terran McCanna >>>>>>> PINES Program Manager >>>>>>> Georgia Public Library Service >>>>>>> 1800 Century Place, Suite 150 >>>>>>> Atlanta, GA 30345 >>>>>>> 404-235-7138 >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Peter Murray" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2015 4:36:56 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Library Hours >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OCLC has an institutional registry [1], which had (in part) library >>>>>>> hours, >>>>>>> addresses, and so forth. It seems to be unavailable, though [2]. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> the only systematic collection of library hours data that I know >>>>>>> about. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [1] https://www.oclc.org/worldcat-registry.en.html >>>>>>> [2] https://www.worldcat.org/registry/institution/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 5, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Bigwood, David <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This looks like a decent group, but I find this statement hard to >>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>> "Your tax-deductible donation supports adding the names, address and >>>>>>> the >>>>> hours of operation of all libraries to Range. The Institute of Museum >>>>>> and >>>>> Library Services publishes an open data catalog which is the source >>>>>> we'll >>>>> use for the names and the addresses of the nation's libraries. However, >>>>>>> there isn't a listing of the days and hours of operation for all >>>>>>> libraries >>>>>>> in the US. We are going to track down the hours of operation for all >>>>>>> 17,000 >>>>>>> libraries and make that information available -- in Range and for >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> developers who may want to use it." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/range-food-and-safe-places-for-youth >>>> >>>>> Are the hours of public libraries really not available? >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>> David Bigwood >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>> Lunar and Planetary Institute >>>>>>>> @LPI_Library >>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lunarandplanetaryinstitute/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> Karen Coyle >>>>> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net >>>>> m: +1-510-435-8234 >>>>> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 >>>>> >>>>> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net >> m: +1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 >> -- Karen Coyle [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net m: +1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600