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I would second (well at this point third) your proposal Andromeda. On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:34 PM, Roy Tennant <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > All for it. Let's call the question, as you have put it so well. Fire up > the voting machine! > Roy > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Andromeda Yelton < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > In my experience on the LITA board (which Code4lib most emphatically is > > not), there are sometimes discussions where all the substantive issues > have > > been put on the table but we have not managed to make a decision, and > > eventually I realized that is because unstructured discussion is not a > > mechanism for making decisions. In the LITA context, the remedy for > > indecisiveness is to *call the question* - to put a motion on the table > and > > make a vote happen, because votes, unlike discussions, are decisions. > > > > I believe this discussion has already put the substantive issues on the > > table, and Code4lib is failing to reach a decision - the same decision it > > failed to reach last year - because it lacks a mechanism for calling the > > question; discussion thus eventually peters out without a mechanism for > > closure. Do-ocracy has been, and I hope and expect will continue to be, a > > fantastic means for Code4lib to produce deliverables - conferences, > > journals, discussion spaces, codes of conduct - but those are all > > situations where self-nominating do-o-crats speak for the *project*, for > > the deliverable, and not for the governance of the community as a whole. > I > > don't think any one of us, or even defined group of us, has the > legitimacy > > to speak for us all in that way. > > > > So we are...not making decisions about governance because we lack a > > governance structure with which to make decisions? > > > > That said, I have seen an actual decision-making mechanism proposed in > this > > discussion: fire up the diebold-o-tron and vote on incorporation/do > > nothing/fiscal sponsorship (with a second vote, if needed, to choose > among > > sponsors). This seems like a very *Code4lib* way of doing things. > Assuming > > we reached some quorum (to put a number on the table, say "70% times the > > number of posters to the list in the last year"), is there anyone here > who > > would not find the outcome of that decision to be legitimate? > > > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Kim, Bohyun <[log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > > > > > Jonathan is right, Cary. I am on this year's LPC for the next year's > C4L > > > conference at DC, and we are already working with DLF as a fiscal > > sponsor. > > > No legal entity status was required. > > > > > > Bohyun<http://www.hshsl.umaryland.edu/> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of > Jonathan > > > Rochkind <[log in to unmask]> > > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 6:18 PM > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad > about > > > bylaws?) > > > > > > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter > > into > > > an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no > "we” > > to > > > enter into said agreement. > > > > > > I've said this before and I'll keep saying it, this is not true that > you > > > need a legal entity to have your project fiscally sponsored by a fiscal > > > sponsor. I know of many projects (not library related, generally > > > 'charitable') which become fiscally sponsored without having any legal > > > incorporation or other legal entity. The project is legally a project > of > > > the fiscal sponsor. > > > > > > It is very common. It is a common way for "charitable" projects to > start > > > out, without legally incorporating at all, perhaps to legally > incorporate > > > and separate from the fiscal sponsor at a later date. > > > > > > If the people we are talking to for fiscal sponsorship are fine with > > this, > > > it is a common thing. > > > > > > Jonathan > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > This is what the FCIG has been working on. > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter > > into > > > > an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no > > "we” > > > to > > > > enter into said agreement. > > > > > > > > Cary > > > > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2017, at 1:03 PM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Again, it is great that things have worked out so well for so long. > > And > > > > there is nothing about the process of formalization that requires (or > > is > > > > even intended to bring about) the sidelining of the folks who have > > worked > > > > so hard to make the Conferences, the Journal and everything else > such a > > > > success. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, there are over 3300 folks currently subscribed to the list > > (it > > > > is by far the largest list that CLIR hosts), and I'm not sure about > > > > Conference attendance, but the FCIG report tells us that "Recent > total > > > > budgets for the annual Code4Lib conference have exceeded $250,000" [ > > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_ > Current_Practice > > < > > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_ > Current_Practice > > >]. > > > > Frankly, if there has *ever* been a time when we could somehow > > ascertain > > > > the consensus of the entire community about "what it wants" in an > > > informal > > > > way, I would argue that it passed a while ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no need for governance to imply a top-down centralization > > > > (though formally electing Roy Tennant as God-Emperor and being done > > with > > > it > > > > is certainly an option open to us). Instead, it can be structured in > > many > > > > ways as a formalization of existing practice. There is no absolutely > no > > > > reason that our existing Trustees can't be elected as officers. And > > when > > > > they want to set their burden down for a bit, the Community can elect > > new > > > > ones. Making this process explicit may be more trouble in some ways, > > but > > > > it's also considerably more democratic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not least, this is a discussion that will likely be forced upon us > if > > > we > > > > try to proceed with partnering with a fiscal sponsor for future > > meetings. > > > > Instead of just randomly copying some bylaws from somewhere, let's > > start > > > > thinking about how to intentionally adopt a form of governance that > > > > preserves the things that we currently like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edwin Sperr > > > > > > > > > > Clinical Information Librarian > > > > > > > > > > AU / UGA Medical Partnership > > > > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> | [log in to unmask] > > > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask] <mailto: > > > > [log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Eric Hellman < > [log in to unmask] > > > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 12:08:31 PM > > > > > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad > > > > about bylaws?) > > > > > > > > > > I've been pondering about this a fair amount. > > > > > > > > > > I don't think Code4Lib is an "amorphous entity with no systematic > way > > > of > > > > arriving at a decision or definable point of contact". Rather, it is > a > > > > decentralized community with long-established norms and > consensus-based > > > > procedures for discerning the will of the community. > > > > > > > > > > The community has been able to accomplish a great deal using > > volunteers > > > > and, for the lack of a better word, trustees. The trustees have been > > > > largely self-appointed or have responded to community requests. These > > > > trustees manage assets and capabilities for the benefit of the > > community. > > > > The asset that has put the largest burden on the part of the trustee > > has > > > > been the annual conference and the corresponding fiscal liabilities. > > > > Because of the burden of this trusteeship, it has been handed off > from > > > > trustee to trustee. > > > > > > > > > > I think it would help if we reframed the discussion away from > > > > "formalizing governance of Code4Lib" to "improving the fiscal > > continuity > > > of > > > > a trustee for one (or more) of the Code4Lib community > > > assets/liabilities", > > > > which I think the fiscal continuity group has advanced considerably. > > > > > > > > > > There has been some good work done in developing and documenting > the > > > > norms and procedures in our community. For example: > > > > > > > > > > https://code4lib.org/about <https://code4lib.org/about> > > > > > About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about < > > > https://code4lib.org/about > > > > >> > > > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/> > > > > > code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a > > > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects, > > curators, > > > > catalogers, artists and instigators ... > > > > > > > > > > About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about < > > > https://code4lib.org/about > > > > >> > > > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/> > > > > > code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a > > > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects, > > curators, > > > > catalogers, artists and instigators ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib < > > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib> < > > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib < > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/ > > > > How_to_hack_code4lib>> > > > > > How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki. > > code4lib.org/How_to_hack_ > > > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>> > > > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/> > > > > > Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The > > > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available > to > > > > help you quickly get the feel ... > > > > > > > > > > How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki. > > code4lib.org/How_to_hack_ > > > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>> > > > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/> > > > > > Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The > > > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available > to > > > > help you quickly get the feel ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5> < > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6 > . > > > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h > > > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > > > > > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m- > > > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h. > > > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/> > > > > > How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, > how > > > do > > > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing > things? > > > If > > > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community > > > (IRC, > > > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe we > > > s... > > > > > > > > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6 > . > > > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h > > > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > > > > > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m- > > > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h. > > > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/> > > > > > How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, > how > > > do > > > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing > things? > > > If > > > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community > > > (IRC, > > > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe we > > > s... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/ > > > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md><htt > > > > ps://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/ > > > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 < > > > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 > >]<https:// > > > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > master/code_of_conduct.md > > > < > > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > > > > > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...< > > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > master/code_of_ > > > > conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > > github.com <http://github.com/> > > > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting > > space > > > > > > > > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 < > > > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 > >]<https:// > > > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > master/code_of_conduct.md > > > < > > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > > > > > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...< > > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > master/code_of_ > > > > conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > > github.com <http://github.com/> > > > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting > > space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be useful to further document Code4lib's consensus-based > > > > procedures and policies for the benefit of legal entities that need > to > > > work > > > > with us, but a formal governance structure for the community (as > > opposed > > > to > > > > that of an asset trustee) is something that I don't think the > community > > > > needs or wants. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I think the notion that we're indebted to "dumb luck" forgets > > > that > > > > "luck" is created by a lot of hard work. > > > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2017, at 11:01 AM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> It is true that the Community has held 12 annual conferences > without > > > > formalization. And yes, it is likely *possible* to continue with the > > > > current model of every conference being essentially a separate > entity, > > > and > > > > support from the larger community being on an ad-hoc basis. But the > > > reason > > > > we are having this discussion is that this is not a particularly good > > > > option -- it depends not only on good will, but (as Coral has noted) > > dumb > > > > luck as well. It also means more stress and effort on the part of > each > > > > year's organizers than necessary. > > > > >> > > > > >> However, if we *do* form a relationship with another entity (or > > > > self-incorporate), some person or persons will sign an agreement that > > > binds > > > > us, however you define "us", to a course of action that will likely > > span > > > > several conferences. This is indeed a significantly different type of > > > > decision than has come before, and it requires a different way of > doing > > > > business. Everybody has had a bad experience or two with bureaucracy, > > but > > > > the current approach of trying to maintain Code4Lib as an amorphous > > > entity > > > > with no systematic way of arriving at a decision or definable point > of > > > > contact has real and tangible drawbacks. > > > > >> > > > > >> So, in the spirit of the current way of doing things, I propose > the > > > > formation of an ad-hoc, self-nominated committee (perhaps the last of > > its > > > > kind) to investigate a formal governance structure for Code4Lib and > > then > > > > assist the Community with its implementation. > > > > >> > > > > >> If you're interested in joining me, please contact me off-list: > > > > [log in to unmask] > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:35:13 -0400 > > > > >>> From: Adam Constabaris <[log in to unmask]> > > > > >>> Subject: Re: What's so bad about bylaws? > > > > >> > > > > >>> It's an interesting question, but code4lib -- whatever exactly > that > > > is > > > > -- > > > > >>> has managed to make all sorts of decisions, about where to hold > > > > >>> conferences, keynote speakers, etc. for over a decade without > > > > formalizing. > > > > >> > > > > >>> I am unclear on the exact details, but there is some carryover of > > > > >>> conference funds from year to year and if I had to guess -- and > > this > > > > is a > > > > >>> guess -- it relies on the good will of the previous year's fiscal > > > > sponsor(s) > > > > >>> transferring the funds to the upcoming year's fiscal sponsor(s). > > > > However > > > > >>> exactly that process works, it's happened multiple times at the > > > > direction > > > > >>> of the community; each time, though, different parties are > > involved. > > > > >> > > > > >>> The F*C*IG is attempting to address (among other things) the > > > > tenuousness of > > > > >>> that arrangement, and they've identified a number of proposals > that > > > > appear > > > > >>> to yield enough formal organization to ensure continuity. The > > > > >>> decision doesn't strike me as more momentous or different in kind > > > from > > > > the ones code4lib has > > > > >>> made in the past, and shouldn't require any new mechanisms. > > > > >> > > > > >> Ed Sperr > > > > >> Clinical Information Librarian > > > > >> AU/UGA Medical Partnership > > > > >> Athens, GA > > > > >> [log in to unmask] | [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Andromeda Yelton > > Senior Software Engineer, MIT Libraries: https://libraries.mit.edu/ > > President, Library & Information Technology Association: > > http://www.lita.org > > http://andromedayelton.com > > @ThatAndromeda <http://twitter.com/ThatAndromeda> > > >