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+1 Best regards, *Jason Bengtson* *http://www.jasonbengtson.com/ <http://www.jasonbengtson.com/>* On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 7:17 AM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Sounds like a start! > > Don't have a copy of Robert's handy, but I think there are more-or-less > established procedures for bootstrapping governance structures to get one > started. Once initial bylaws are in place, you have a formal process for > getting input for further iterations. > > One point of order -- if we're going to call a vote on an important issue, > it's vital that all stakeholders know what's going on. So, a separate > message (with a suitably "officialish" subject line) to the list announcing > the vote? Is there any need to send a separate message to recent conference > attendees, or is it a safe assumption that they are all subscribed to the > list? > > Ed Sperr > Clinical Information Librarian > AU/UGA Medical Partnership > Athens, GA > [log in to unmask] | [log in to unmask] > > -----Original Message----- > From: Code for Libraries [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of > Andromeda Yelton > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 9:32 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad about > bylaws?) > > In my experience on the LITA board (which Code4lib most emphatically is > not), there are sometimes discussions where all the substantive issues have > been put on the table but we have not managed to make a decision, and > eventually I realized that is because unstructured discussion is not a > mechanism for making decisions. In the LITA context, the remedy for > indecisiveness is to *call the question* - to put a motion on the table and > make a vote happen, because votes, unlike discussions, are decisions. > > I believe this discussion has already put the substantive issues on the > table, and Code4lib is failing to reach a decision - the same decision it > failed to reach last year - because it lacks a mechanism for calling the > question; discussion thus eventually peters out without a mechanism for > closure. Do-ocracy has been, and I hope and expect will continue to be, a > fantastic means for Code4lib to produce deliverables - conferences, > journals, discussion spaces, codes of conduct - but those are all > situations where self-nominating do-o-crats speak for the *project*, for > the deliverable, and not for the governance of the community as a whole. I > don't think any one of us, or even defined group of us, has the legitimacy > to speak for us all in that way. > > So we are...not making decisions about governance because we lack a > governance structure with which to make decisions? > > That said, I have seen an actual decision-making mechanism proposed in this > discussion: fire up the diebold-o-tron and vote on incorporation/do > nothing/fiscal sponsorship (with a second vote, if needed, to choose among > sponsors). This seems like a very *Code4lib* way of doing things. Assuming > we reached some quorum (to put a number on the table, say "70% times the > number of posters to the list in the last year"), is there anyone here who > would not find the outcome of that decision to be legitimate? > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Kim, Bohyun <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > Jonathan is right, Cary. I am on this year's LPC for the next year's > > C4L conference at DC, and we are already working with DLF as a fiscal > sponsor. > > No legal entity status was required. > > > > Bohyun<http://www.hshsl.umaryland.edu/> > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of > > Jonathan Rochkind <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 6:18 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad > > about > > bylaws?) > > > > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter > > > into > > an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no > > "we” to enter into said agreement. > > > > I've said this before and I'll keep saying it, this is not true that > > you need a legal entity to have your project fiscally sponsored by a > > fiscal sponsor. I know of many projects (not library related, > > generally > > 'charitable') which become fiscally sponsored without having any legal > > incorporation or other legal entity. The project is legally a project > > of the fiscal sponsor. > > > > It is very common. It is a common way for "charitable" projects to > > start out, without legally incorporating at all, perhaps to legally > > incorporate and separate from the fiscal sponsor at a later date. > > > > If the people we are talking to for fiscal sponsorship are fine with > > this, it is a common thing. > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > > > This is what the FCIG has been working on. > > > > > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter > > > into an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is > no "we” > > to > > > enter into said agreement. > > > > > > Cary > > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2017, at 1:03 PM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Again, it is great that things have worked out so well for so > > > > long. And > > > there is nothing about the process of formalization that requires > > > (or is even intended to bring about) the sidelining of the folks who > > > have worked so hard to make the Conferences, the Journal and > > > everything else such a success. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, there are over 3300 folks currently subscribed to the > > > > list (it > > > is by far the largest list that CLIR hosts), and I'm not sure about > > > Conference attendance, but the FCIG report tells us that "Recent > > > total budgets for the annual Code4Lib conference have exceeded > > > $250,000" [ > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_Current_Practice > < https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_Current_Practice>]. > > > Frankly, if there has *ever* been a time when we could somehow > > > ascertain the consensus of the entire community about "what it > > > wants" in an > > informal > > > way, I would argue that it passed a while ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no need for governance to imply a top-down centralization > > > (though formally electing Roy Tennant as God-Emperor and being done > > > with > > it > > > is certainly an option open to us). Instead, it can be structured in > > > many ways as a formalization of existing practice. There is no > > > absolutely no reason that our existing Trustees can't be elected as > > > officers. And when they want to set their burden down for a bit, the > > > Community can elect new ones. Making this process explicit may be > > > more trouble in some ways, but it's also considerably more democratic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not least, this is a discussion that will likely be forced upon us > > > > if > > we > > > try to proceed with partnering with a fiscal sponsor for future > meetings. > > > Instead of just randomly copying some bylaws from somewhere, let's > > > start thinking about how to intentionally adopt a form of governance > > > that preserves the things that we currently like. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edwin Sperr > > > > > > > > Clinical Information Librarian > > > > > > > > AU / UGA Medical Partnership > > > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> | [log in to unmask] > > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask] <mailto: > > > [log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Eric Hellman > > > <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 12:08:31 PM > > > > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so > > > > bad > > > about bylaws?) > > > > > > > > I've been pondering about this a fair amount. > > > > > > > > I don't think Code4Lib is an "amorphous entity with no systematic > > > > way > > of > > > arriving at a decision or definable point of contact". Rather, it is > > > a decentralized community with long-established norms and > > > consensus-based procedures for discerning the will of the community. > > > > > > > > The community has been able to accomplish a great deal using > > > > volunteers > > > and, for the lack of a better word, trustees. The trustees have been > > > largely self-appointed or have responded to community requests. > > > These trustees manage assets and capabilities for the benefit of the > community. > > > The asset that has put the largest burden on the part of the trustee > > > has been the annual conference and the corresponding fiscal > liabilities. > > > Because of the burden of this trusteeship, it has been handed off > > > from trustee to trustee. > > > > > > > > I think it would help if we reframed the discussion away from > > > "formalizing governance of Code4Lib" to "improving the fiscal > > > continuity > > of > > > a trustee for one (or more) of the Code4Lib community > > assets/liabilities", > > > which I think the fiscal continuity group has advanced considerably. > > > > > > > > There has been some good work done in developing and documenting > > > > the > > > norms and procedures in our community. For example: > > > > > > > > https://code4lib.org/about <https://code4lib.org/about> About | > > > > code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about < > > https://code4lib.org/about > > > >> > > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/> code4lib isn't entirely about > > > > code or libraries. It is a > > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects, > > > curators, catalogers, artists and instigators ... > > > > > > > > About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about < > > https://code4lib.org/about > > > >> > > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/> code4lib isn't entirely about > > > > code or libraries. It is a > > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects, > > > curators, catalogers, artists and instigators ... > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib < > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib> < > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib < > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/ > > > How_to_hack_code4lib>> > > > > How to hack code4lib - > > > > Code4Lib<https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_ > > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>> > > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/> Hop into the > > > > #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The > > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available > > > to help you quickly get the feel ... > > > > > > > > How to hack code4lib - > > > > Code4Lib<https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_ > > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>> > > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/> Hop into the > > > > #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The > > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available > > > to help you quickly get the feel ... > > > > > > > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5> < > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6. > > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h > > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > > > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m- > > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h. > > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/> How do we make code4lib > > > > a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, how > > do > > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing things? > > If > > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community > > (IRC, > > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe > > > we > > s... > > > > > > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6. > > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD- > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h > > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 < > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > > > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m- > > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h. > > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_ > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>> > > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/> How do we make code4lib > > > > a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, how > > do > > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing things? > > If > > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community > > (IRC, > > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe > > > we > > s... > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/ > > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md><htt > > > ps://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/ > > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 < > > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400>]<https:/ > > > / > > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduc > > > t.md > > < > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > > > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...< > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_o > > > f_ conduct.md > > > <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > github.com <http://github.com/> > > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting > > > > space > > > > > > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 < > > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400>]<https:/ > > > / > > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduc > > > t.md > > < > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > > > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...< > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_o > > > f_ conduct.md > > > <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/ > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>> > > > > github.com <http://github.com/> > > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting > > > > space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be useful to further document Code4lib's consensus-based > > > procedures and policies for the benefit of legal entities that need > > > to > > work > > > with us, but a formal governance structure for the community (as > > > opposed > > to > > > that of an asset trustee) is something that I don't think the > > > community needs or wants. > > > > > > > > Also, I think the notion that we're indebted to "dumb luck" > > > > forgets > > that > > > "luck" is created by a lot of hard work. > > > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 24, 2017, at 11:01 AM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR > > > >> <[log in to unmask]> > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> It is true that the Community has held 12 annual conferences > > > >> without > > > formalization. And yes, it is likely *possible* to continue with the > > > current model of every conference being essentially a separate > > > entity, > > and > > > support from the larger community being on an ad-hoc basis. But the > > reason > > > we are having this discussion is that this is not a particularly > > > good option -- it depends not only on good will, but (as Coral has > > > noted) dumb luck as well. It also means more stress and effort on > > > the part of each year's organizers than necessary. > > > >> > > > >> However, if we *do* form a relationship with another entity (or > > > self-incorporate), some person or persons will sign an agreement > > > that > > binds > > > us, however you define "us", to a course of action that will likely > > > span several conferences. This is indeed a significantly different > > > type of decision than has come before, and it requires a different > > > way of doing business. Everybody has had a bad experience or two > > > with bureaucracy, but the current approach of trying to maintain > > > Code4Lib as an amorphous > > entity > > > with no systematic way of arriving at a decision or definable point > > > of contact has real and tangible drawbacks. > > > >> > > > >> So, in the spirit of the current way of doing things, I propose > > > >> the > > > formation of an ad-hoc, self-nominated committee (perhaps the last > > > of its > > > kind) to investigate a formal governance structure for Code4Lib and > > > then assist the Community with its implementation. > > > >> > > > >> If you're interested in joining me, please contact me off-list: > > > [log in to unmask] > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:35:13 -0400 > > > >>> From: Adam Constabaris <[log in to unmask]> > > > >>> Subject: Re: What's so bad about bylaws? > > > >> > > > >>> It's an interesting question, but code4lib -- whatever exactly > > > >>> that > > is > > > -- > > > >>> has managed to make all sorts of decisions, about where to hold > > > >>> conferences, keynote speakers, etc. for over a decade without > > > formalizing. > > > >> > > > >>> I am unclear on the exact details, but there is some carryover > > > >>> of conference funds from year to year and if I had to guess -- > > > >>> and this > > > is a > > > >>> guess -- it relies on the good will of the previous year's > > > >>> fiscal > > > sponsor(s) > > > >>> transferring the funds to the upcoming year's fiscal sponsor(s). > > > However > > > >>> exactly that process works, it's happened multiple times at the > > > direction > > > >>> of the community; each time, though, different parties are > involved. > > > >> > > > >>> The F*C*IG is attempting to address (among other things) the > > > tenuousness of > > > >>> that arrangement, and they've identified a number of proposals > > > >>> that > > > appear > > > >>> to yield enough formal organization to ensure continuity. The > > > >>> decision doesn't strike me as more momentous or different in > > > >>> kind > > from > > > the ones code4lib has > > > >>> made in the past, and shouldn't require any new mechanisms. > > > >> > > > >> Ed Sperr > > > >> Clinical Information Librarian > > > >> AU/UGA Medical Partnership > > > >> Athens, GA > > > >> [log in to unmask] | [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > > -- > Andromeda Yelton > Senior Software Engineer, MIT Libraries: https://libraries.mit.edu/ > President, Library & Information Technology Association: > http://www.lita.org http://andromedayelton.com @ThatAndromeda < > http://twitter.com/ThatAndromeda> >