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On 10/12/23 11:43 PM, Companjen, B.A. (Ben) wrote: > Hi Karen, > > It sounds like DC Elements' contributor is one of the properties you are > looking for. For other roles you could create a derived property (in > Turtle without namespace prefix declarations): > > myvocab:adp dcterms:source relators:adp ; > > rdf:type rdfs:Property . > > You could even define each as a super property of the LoC Relators > counterpart. This particular project is limited in what it can define "new" for reasons that are a bit complex. But it has some specific needs AND the project principals adhere (for their own reasons) to well-known library-related vocabularies. > > I don't think the LoC Relators are constrained or strongly linked to > BIBFRAME. What makes you think they are? > > The assertion that something is a bf:Role does not exclude the > possibility that it is also something else (and indeed each relator is > also an owl:ObjectProperty and a skos:Concept), so it could also be a > prov:Role. That is a benefit of the open-world assumption. For people creating a vocabulary, yes. For folks who are trying to reuse what is there without defining new vocabularies, not so much. My main work at DC has been on application profiles. With minimally constrained vocabularies you can create an application profile that doesn't require any new vocabulary definitions. [1] Since most applications are not going to be doing inferencing, this works well. At the same time, definitions that include the elements of inferencing (ranges, etc.) should not be ignored - otherwise, why define them? (cf. schema.org - developed by one of the authors of RDF schema, but which very carefully do not use the inferenceable parts of RDF.) I think we can do linked data without the baggage of inferencing, using just the triple concept of RDF. One thing I keep running into is the downside of everyone creating their own vocabularies. It's easy enough to do, but 1) not everyone has a namespace they can use and 2) even if they have a namespace there is the maintenance problem. How will we maintain all of these vocabularies in a massively shared environment? (I recently had to dig around to find the person who could revive vocab.org -- some very useful vocabularies but the namespace had expired.) It is telling that W3C began to offer a "universal namespace" for vocabularies but quickly decided to pull back on that. DC is currently acting as the archive for BIBO and FOAF, but I'm not sure how sustainable that is. Anyway, thanks for the conversation - it really helps me to think these things through. kc [1] https://dcmi.github.io/dctap/TAPprimer.html > > Regards, > > Ben > > *From: *Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Karen > Coyle <[log in to unmask]> > *Date: *Thursday, 12 October 2023 at 16:46 > *To: *[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > *Subject: *Re: [CODE4LIB] Question about multiple declarations > > Thanks, Ben, this is what I suspected and it is good to get a confirmation. > > I've been doing a lot of work under the Dublin Core auspices lately and > I've become very aware of the difference between a vocabulary developed > for a specific application and a vocabulary developed for general use. > Think of the RDA "unconstrained" but possibly even more unconstrained. > > The LoC relators could be useful to lots of communities if there were an > unconstrained version that was not specific to BIBFRAME classes and that > allowed string values as well as IRIs. At DC we talk about "minimal > semantic commitment" for base vocabularies with the "commitment" taking > place in application profiles. > > Now, obviously, LoC is developing for its own needs and isn't obligated > to manage its vocabularies for other uses. But it would be great if we > had more unconstrained lists, and if there were a site to maintain them. > DC does what it can but of course has limited resources. > > Thanks again, > > kc > > On 10/10/23 9:30 AM, Companjen, B.A. (Ben) wrote: >> Hi Karen, >> >> I have been surprised by how RDF and reasoning combine, and hopefully I now know enough to give a "reasonable" answer. >> >> Looking at the role contributor, it is asserted to be a subproperty of dc:contributor (from the DC Elements, not the Terms). It is also asserted to be an OWL ObjectProperty. Finally there is an assertion that contributor is a BIBFRAME Role. >> >> You are correct that these assertions combine with AND. They are "just" assertions and whether there is an inconsistency or error depends on what (kind of) logic and other knowledge you use. >> >> For a long time I assumed that something could not be a SKOS Concept and an RDFS Property, but SKOS does not impose such a limitation. So even if it feels wrong, I think a relator may be a rdfs:Property (implied by rdfs:subPropertyOf and owl:ObjectProperty) and a bf:Role. >> >> When you use https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fid.loc.gov%2Fvocabulary%2Frelators%2Fctb&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=L7pN2zhAJeWspwWvpav2Fl0IOliz3wig5najF%2Bpkb60%3D&reserved=0 <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/relators/ctb> as a predicate and the object in the triple is a literal (such as a string), I think an OWL reasoner may find an inconsistency: owl:ObjectProperty implies that the object should be an individual, which a literal is not. However, without testing this, a reasoner may also infer that there is another individual that it doesn't know of. That is the open world assumption that makes OWL less suitable (or harder to use) as a constraint language. >> >> Without looking into the BIBFRAME model, I think bf:Role is the class of "things" that can qualify how agents are involved in activities (similar to how the Provenance Ontology uses Role<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2F2013%2FNOTE-prov-primer-20130430%2F%23roles&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XVrRnA8izQWwHz0JHBgK%2F6nq1uaSEXwGoLD3x2RJ1Ow%3D&reserved=0 <https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-prov-primer-20130430/#roles>> to link activities to entities and activities and agents). >> >> I hope this helps! >> >> Regards, >> >> Ben >> Ben Companjen >> Research Software and Data Engineer / Digital Scholarship Librarian >> Centre for Digital Scholarship >> Leiden University Libraries (UBL) >> >> Tel: +31634556900 >> Post: Postbus 9501, 2300 RA Leiden >> E-mail: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> Web: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.universiteitleiden.nl%2Fen%2Fstaffmembers%2Fben-companjen&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=8FldNVQDoSMvgMt1sEI32GN1uucs%2FN%2Fu%2B0CPdt4Puak%3D&reserved=0 <https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/ben-companjen> >> >> >> >> From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> >> Date: Monday, 9 October 2023 at 23:36 >> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: [CODE4LIB] Question about multiple declarations >> All, >> >> I am looking at the LoC relators at id.loc.gov, and am trying to >> understand the implications of the multiple declarations for relator terms. >> >> <rdfs:subPropertyOf >> rdf:resource="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Fdc%2Felements%2F1.1%2Fcontributor%2522%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pr6cruyQxMDqoGwYSeybaVNUTZ1V%2BNvJXqIie%2FILjmU%3D&reserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.org%2Fdc%2Felements%2F1.1%2Fcontributor%2522%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pr6cruyQxMDqoGwYSeybaVNUTZ1V%2BNvJXqIie%2FILjmU%3D&reserved=0 <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor%22/>>> >> <rdf:type rdf:resource="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F07%2Fowl%23ObjectProperty%2522%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KDLeTu%2BfDR3HaUlPA71aB86zEpxlU0%2FtjJvHMcuGq1o%3D&reserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F07%2Fowl%23ObjectProperty%2522%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KDLeTu%2BfDR3HaUlPA71aB86zEpxlU0%2FtjJvHMcuGq1o%3D&reserved=0 <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#ObjectProperty%22/>>> >> <rdf:type rdf:resource="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fid.loc.gov%2Fontologies%2Fbibframe%2FRole%2522%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GXlng7WeTteL%2FXMYN7KCDmPngA3yHiil1kvxfxbR%2B3E%3D&reserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fid.loc.gov%2Fontologies%2Fbibframe%2FRole%2522%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GXlng7WeTteL%2FXMYN7KCDmPngA3yHiil1kvxfxbR%2B3E%3D&reserved=0 <http://id.loc.gov/ontologies/bibframe/Role%22/>>> >> >> dct:contributor is not an Object Property; there is no object type >> given, so I suppose it is de facto an Annotation Property. I read the >> next statement as narrowing, so at statement 2 we have: >> subproperty of dct:contributor AND an owl:ObjectProperty >> >> If my reading is correct, it would be a violation of this to use the >> relator with a string rather than a thing. >> >> (Stop me here if I'm wrong.) >> >> Then the 3rd statement appears to say that the relator is a bf:Role, >> which is a BIBFRAME-specific class. I can't wrap my head around the >> functionality of this statement and would love a brief explanation. I'm >> undoubtedly not into BIBFRAME deep enough to grok this. >> >> Also, my reading is that each relator is ALL THREE OF THESE; this is an >> AND not at OR. Right? >> >> Thanks for any help, >> kc >> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> [log in to unmask] https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkcoyle.net%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CEToDtQdvxfhQGJVtkfe%2B1er6OU58Dgro6vxe4iEfWc%3D&reserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkcoyle.net%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CEToDtQdvxfhQGJVtkfe%2B1er6OU58Dgro6vxe4iEfWc%3D&reserved=0> <http://kcoyle.net/> >> m: +1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet/+1-510-984-3600 > > -- > Karen Coyle > [log in to unmask] > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkcoyle.net%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cb.a.companjen%40LIBRARY.LEIDENUNIV.NL%7C1ed5c3d8b77f4d3519f408dbcb31f399%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638327187631097743%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CEToDtQdvxfhQGJVtkfe%2B1er6OU58Dgro6vxe4iEfWc%3D&reserved=0 <http://kcoyle.net/> > -- Karen Coyle [log in to unmask] http://kcoyle.net skype: kcoylenet