I'm just kind of shocked honestly. I have seen non-toxic discussions on
Code4Lib in the past about inclusiveness, etc.. Gender and sexual issues in
the software community has been a big topic in the media for several years
now. And it's not exactly like there is an obvious ALA SexualHarassment4Lib
listserv where this could easily be redirected. Saying you disagree with
the OP's methodology etc is all fine and good but just blanket stating that
this topic is off bounds is bewildering. I will let this die now but
honestly the attitudes expressed here leave a pretty bad taste in my mouth.

Joshua Welker
Library Systems and Discovery Coordinator
James C. Kirkpatrick Library
University of Central Missouri
Warrensburg, MO 64093
JCKL 2260
660.543.8022



On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 1:43 PM Andreas Orphanides <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I agree that this thread has reached levels of toxicity that I didn't think
> Code4Lib was capable of. At the risk of perpetuating the thread, I hope
> that once this conversation is a distant memory, the community members who
> have already been driven away will someday return to a more welcoming
> space.
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 2:36 PM Natasha Allen <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > This would be a great round table to have at next year's conference, just
> > not here. Not in this space. Not when *in this same thread* there is
> > cross-talk and accusatory language. It's particularly inappropriate if
> > we're not centering those who are often affected the most by these
> > situations. It's so hard to gauge tone in these discussions on the
> internet
> > and things can unnecessarily spiral, which is why I suggest a roundtable
> > discussion or somewhere where survivors feel safe to speak up. I
> appreciate
> > Sunni for bringing it up, and I agree it's important. I disagree with the
> > format and how it was brought up. It's not an indictment on any one
> person,
> > but more out of my personal concern and my desire to minimize harm to
> those
> > directly affected by sexual harassment.
> >
> > Natasha
> >
> > ---
> > Natasha Allen (she/her)
> > System and Fulfillment Coordinator, University Library
> > San José State University
> > 1 Washington Square
> > San José , CA 95192
> > [log in to unmask]
> > 408-808-2655
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 11:21 AM Andreas Orphanides <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I don't think the answer to the questions of this thread is
> "off-topic".
> > To
> > > my mind, it's not. It's been a long time since Code4Lib has been solely
> > the
> > > venue of people who write code in libraries, nor solely the place of
> > > discussion for code in libraries. This community has grown to
> encompass a
> > > whole host of adjacent issues, not least of which include things like
> > > psychological safety, diversity, and community-building in the library
> > > technology space at large.
> > >
> > > To that end, I think an empathetic and receptive discussion of sexual
> > > harassment and assault is relevant, and necessary.
> > >
> > > I share many of the same concerns that a lot of people do with how
> > Sunni's
> > > work emerged on the mailing list. I agree with what a lot of people
> have
> > > said about the journalism ethics issues and concerns about identifying
> > > contributors. But to the credit of many community members, especially
> > > Natasha, they have done a good job of reaching out to Sunni and
> > > communicating those concerns. And to Sunni's credit it seems like she's
> > > been receptive to those comments and will hopefully take those lessons
> to
> > > her next article.
> > >
> > > As frustrating and difficult as the thread has been, however, I think
> it
> > > would be wrong and shortsighted to use it as an excuse to shut down
> > > discussion of sexual harassment in our community. It happens in our
> > > workplaces and our departments. It happens at our conference. I like to
> > > think that "we" are in a better place with respect to this than many
> > other
> > > similar communities, especially in light of things like the Code of
> > Conduct
> > > and our use of Community Support Volunteers at the conference, but I
> have
> > > no direct evidence to know that we are "better" than anyone else. And I
> > > don't think there's a way we could get a sense without a frank and open
> > > discussion of the topic.
> > >
> > > I can't speak on behalf of those who have experienced harassment within
> > or
> > > outside of our community. But I know that they are part of our
> > community. I
> > > don't know how best to make Code4Lib a safe and welcoming place for
> them
> > to
> > > share their experiences, but I know that we -- especially those of us
> who
> > > have not had these experiences -- have to do it. And I'm pretty sure
> that
> > > shutting the door on discussion of the topic is not the way.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 1:55 PM Christopher R. HOFFMAN <
> > > [log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Richard, thank you for demonstrating why this is not a safe space
> > > > for these kinds of conversations.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > On Jul 2, 2019, at 10:45 AM, richard
> > > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> I know many people are ready to see this thread stop, but do you
> > know
> > > > of a better forum?
> > > > >
> > > > > You're a library information professional and don't have the skills
> > to
> > > > identify online forums related to libraries? Yikes! The first part of
> > the
> > > > name of this list is "CODE4" - that should provide adequate clue as
> the
> > > > nature of appropriate topics for posts.
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, and this is to everyone who DOES have Internet research
> > skills
> > > > and the capacity to infer proper topics for the list based on its
> name,
> > > > ignore inappropriate content that you can't regulate...DON'T FEED THE
> > > > TROLLS.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>