+1 to all of that.

The very reason I didn't post and was part of the original deafening
silence was because I had no idea what the affect of my posting would be,
so why waste people's bandwidth?

jenn

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:32 PM, Andromeda Yelton <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> In my experience on the LITA board (which Code4lib most emphatically is
> not), there are sometimes discussions where all the substantive issues have
> been put on the table but we have not managed to make a decision, and
> eventually I realized that is because unstructured discussion is not a
> mechanism for making decisions. In the LITA context, the remedy for
> indecisiveness is to *call the question* - to put a motion on the table and
> make a vote happen, because votes, unlike discussions, are decisions.
>
> I believe this discussion has already put the substantive issues on the
> table, and Code4lib is failing to reach a decision - the same decision it
> failed to reach last year - because it lacks a mechanism for calling the
> question; discussion thus eventually peters out without a mechanism for
> closure. Do-ocracy has been, and I hope and expect will continue to be, a
> fantastic means for Code4lib to produce deliverables - conferences,
> journals, discussion spaces, codes of conduct - but those are all
> situations where self-nominating do-o-crats speak for the *project*, for
> the deliverable, and not for the governance of the community as a whole. I
> don't think any one of us, or even defined group of us, has the legitimacy
> to speak for us all in that way.
>
> So we are...not making decisions about governance because we lack a
> governance structure with which to make decisions?
>
> That said, I have seen an actual decision-making mechanism proposed in this
> discussion: fire up the diebold-o-tron and vote on incorporation/do
> nothing/fiscal sponsorship (with a second vote, if needed, to choose among
> sponsors). This seems like a very *Code4lib* way of doing things. Assuming
> we reached some quorum (to put a number on the table, say "70% times the
> number of posters to the list in the last year"), is there anyone here who
> would not find the outcome of that decision to be legitimate?
>
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Kim, Bohyun <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Jonathan is right, Cary. I am on this year's LPC for the next year's C4L
> > conference at DC, and we are already working with DLF as a fiscal
> sponsor.
> > No legal entity status was required.
> >
> > Bohyun<http://www.hshsl.umaryland.edu/>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jonathan
> > Rochkind <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 6:18 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad about
> > bylaws?)
> >
> > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter
> into
> > an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no "we”
> to
> > enter into said agreement.
> >
> > I've said this before and I'll keep saying it, this is not true that you
> > need a legal entity to have your project fiscally sponsored by a fiscal
> > sponsor. I know of many projects (not library related, generally
> > 'charitable') which become fiscally sponsored without having any legal
> > incorporation or other legal entity. The project is legally a project of
> > the fiscal sponsor.
> >
> > It is very common. It is a common way for "charitable" projects to start
> > out, without legally incorporating at all, perhaps to legally incorporate
> > and separate from the fiscal sponsor at a later date.
> >
> > If the people we are talking to for fiscal sponsorship are fine with
> this,
> > it is a common thing.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > This is what the FCIG has been working on.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter
> into
> > > an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no
> "we”
> > to
> > > enter into said agreement.
> > >
> > > Cary
> > >
> > > > On Jul 24, 2017, at 1:03 PM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Again, it is great that things have worked out so well for so long.
> And
> > > there is nothing about the process of formalization that requires (or
> is
> > > even intended to bring about) the sidelining of the folks who have
> worked
> > > so hard to make the Conferences, the Journal and everything else such a
> > > success.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > However, there are over 3300 folks currently subscribed to the list
> (it
> > > is by far the largest list that CLIR hosts), and I'm not sure about
> > > Conference attendance, but the FCIG report tells us that "Recent total
> > > budgets for the annual Code4Lib conference have exceeded $250,000" [
> > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_Current_Practice
> <
> > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_Current_Practice
> >].
> > > Frankly, if there has *ever* been a time when we could somehow
> ascertain
> > > the consensus of the entire community about "what it wants" in an
> > informal
> > > way, I would argue that it passed a while ago.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is no need for governance to imply a top-down centralization
> > > (though formally electing Roy Tennant as God-Emperor and being done
> with
> > it
> > > is certainly an option open to us). Instead, it can be structured in
> many
> > > ways as a formalization of existing practice. There is no absolutely no
> > > reason that our existing Trustees can't be elected as officers. And
> when
> > > they want to set their burden down for a bit, the Community can elect
> new
> > > ones. Making this process explicit may be more trouble in some ways,
> but
> > > it's also considerably more democratic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not least, this is a discussion that will likely be forced upon us if
> > we
> > > try to proceed with partnering with a fiscal sponsor for future
> meetings.
> > > Instead of just randomly copying some bylaws from somewhere, let's
> start
> > > thinking about how to intentionally adopt a form of governance that
> > > preserves the things that we currently like.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Edwin Sperr
> > > >
> > > > Clinical Information Librarian
> > > >
> > > > AU / UGA Medical Partnership
> > > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> | [log in to unmask]
> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
> > > [log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Eric Hellman <[log in to unmask]
> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 12:08:31 PM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad
> > > about bylaws?)
> > > >
> > > > I've been pondering about this a fair amount.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think Code4Lib is an "amorphous entity with no systematic way
> > of
> > > arriving at a decision or definable point of contact". Rather, it is a
> > > decentralized community with long-established norms and consensus-based
> > > procedures for discerning the will of the community.
> > > >
> > > > The community has been able to accomplish a great deal using
> volunteers
> > > and, for the lack of a better word, trustees. The trustees have been
> > > largely self-appointed or have responded to community requests. These
> > > trustees manage assets and capabilities for the benefit of the
> community.
> > > The asset that has put the largest burden on the part of the trustee
> has
> > > been the annual conference and the corresponding fiscal liabilities.
> > > Because of the burden of this trusteeship, it has been handed off from
> > > trustee to trustee.
> > > >
> > > > I think it would help if we reframed the discussion away from
> > > "formalizing governance of Code4Lib" to "improving the fiscal
> continuity
> > of
> > > a trustee for one (or more) of the Code4Lib community
> > assets/liabilities",
> > > which I think the fiscal continuity group has advanced considerably.
> > > >
> > > > There has been some good work done in developing and documenting the
> > > norms and procedures in our community. For example:
> > > >
> > > > https://code4lib.org/about <https://code4lib.org/about>
> > > > About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about <
> > https://code4lib.org/about
> > > >>
> > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/>
> > > > code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a
> > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects,
> curators,
> > > catalogers, artists and instigators ...
> > > >
> > > > About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about <
> > https://code4lib.org/about
> > > >>
> > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/>
> > > > code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a
> > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects,
> curators,
> > > catalogers, artists and instigators ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib <
> > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib> <
> > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib <
> > https://wiki.code4lib.org/
> > > How_to_hack_code4lib>>
> > > > How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki.
> code4lib.org/How_to_hack_
> > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>>
> > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/>
> > > > Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The
> > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available to
> > > help you quickly get the feel ...
> > > >
> > > > How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki.
> code4lib.org/How_to_hack_
> > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>>
> > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/>
> > > > Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The
> > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available to
> > > help you quickly get the feel ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5> <
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6.
> > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h
> > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > >
> > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-
> > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.
> > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/>
> > > > How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, how
> > do
> > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing things?
> > If
> > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community
> > (IRC,
> > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe we
> > s...
> > > >
> > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6.
> > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h
> > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > >
> > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-
> > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.
> > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/>
> > > > How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or, how
> > do
> > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing things?
> > If
> > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community
> > (IRC,
> > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe we
> > s...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/
> > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md><htt
> > > ps://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/
> > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 <
> > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400>]<https://
> > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> master/code_of_conduct.md
> > <
> > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > >
> > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...<
> > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_
> > > conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > github.com <http://github.com/>
> > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting
> space
> > > >
> > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 <
> > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400>]<https://
> > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> master/code_of_conduct.md
> > <
> > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > >
> > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...<
> > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_
> > > conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > github.com <http://github.com/>
> > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting
> space
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It may be useful to further document Code4lib's consensus-based
> > > procedures and policies for the benefit of legal entities that need to
> > work
> > > with us, but a formal governance structure for the community (as
> opposed
> > to
> > > that of an asset trustee) is something that I don't think the community
> > > needs or wants.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I think the notion that we're indebted to "dumb luck" forgets
> > that
> > > "luck" is created by a lot of hard work.
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Jul 24, 2017, at 11:01 AM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> It is true that the Community has held 12 annual conferences without
> > > formalization. And yes, it is likely *possible* to continue with the
> > > current model of every conference being essentially a separate entity,
> > and
> > > support from the larger community being on an ad-hoc basis. But the
> > reason
> > > we are having this discussion is that this is not a particularly good
> > > option -- it depends not only on good will, but (as Coral has noted)
> dumb
> > > luck as well. It also means more stress and effort on the part of each
> > > year's organizers than necessary.
> > > >>
> > > >> However, if we *do* form a relationship with another entity (or
> > > self-incorporate), some person or persons will sign an agreement that
> > binds
> > > us, however you define "us", to a course of action that will likely
> span
> > > several conferences. This is indeed a significantly different type of
> > > decision than has come before, and it requires a different way of doing
> > > business. Everybody has had a bad experience or two with bureaucracy,
> but
> > > the current approach of trying to maintain Code4Lib as an amorphous
> > entity
> > > with no systematic way of arriving at a decision or definable point of
> > > contact has real and tangible drawbacks.
> > > >>
> > > >> So, in the spirit of the current way of doing things, I propose the
> > > formation of an ad-hoc, self-nominated committee (perhaps the last of
> its
> > > kind) to investigate a formal governance structure for Code4Lib and
> then
> > > assist the Community with its implementation.
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're interested in joining me, please contact me off-list:
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Date:    Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:35:13 -0400
> > > >>> From:    Adam Constabaris <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>> Subject: Re: What's so bad about bylaws?
> > > >>
> > > >>> It's an interesting question, but code4lib -- whatever exactly that
> > is
> > > --
> > > >>> has managed to make all sorts of decisions, about where to hold
> > > >>> conferences, keynote speakers, etc. for over a decade without
> > > formalizing.
> > > >>
> > > >>> I am unclear on the exact details, but there is some carryover of
> > > >>> conference funds from year to year and if I had to guess -- and
> this
> > > is a
> > > >>> guess -- it relies on the good will of the previous year's fiscal
> > > sponsor(s)
> > > >>> transferring the funds to the upcoming year's fiscal sponsor(s).
> > > However
> > > >>> exactly that process works, it's happened multiple times at the
> > > direction
> > > >>> of the community; each time, though, different parties are
> involved.
> > > >>
> > > >>> The F*C*IG is attempting to address (among other things) the
> > > tenuousness of
> > > >>> that arrangement, and they've identified a number of proposals that
> > > appear
> > > >>> to yield enough formal organization to ensure continuity.   The
> > > >>> decision doesn't strike me as more momentous or different in kind
> > from
> > > the ones code4lib has
> > > >>> made in the past, and shouldn't require any new mechanisms.
> > > >>
> > > >> Ed Sperr
> > > >> Clinical Information Librarian
> > > >> AU/UGA Medical Partnership
> > > >> Athens, GA
> > > >> [log in to unmask] | [log in to unmask]
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andromeda Yelton
> Senior Software Engineer, MIT Libraries: https://libraries.mit.edu/
> President, Library & Information Technology Association:
> http://www.lita.org
> http://andromedayelton.com
> @ThatAndromeda <http://twitter.com/ThatAndromeda>
>