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CODE4LIB  August 2007

CODE4LIB August 2007

Subject:

Re: code4lib.org hosting discussion transcript

From:

Clay Redding <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 2 Aug 2007 13:01:29 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (782 lines)

So what was agreed to keep on anvil?  I don't really want any aspect
of c4l on it.


On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:36 PM, Gabriel Farrell wrote:

> Okay, no objections, and it's afternoon in Philly, so here it is.  I
> think the following snippet pretty much covers yesterday's discussion.
> I don't think anyone said anything too incriminating.  Please
> excuse my
> out-of-place Helen Thomas incrementing.  Oh, and, mjgiarlo, I hope you
> didn't mean for that exclamation point to be real.
>
>
> 2007-08-01T14:57:53  *** jaf changes topic to "discussion on
> hosting code4lib.org"
> 2007-08-01T14:58:03  <ksclarke> the time has come, eh?
> 2007-08-01T14:58:09  <jaf> in a minute, yes :)
> 2007-08-01T14:58:28  <wtd> Attention! Attention! Discussion
> beginning soon.
> 2007-08-01T14:58:35  <jaf> ok, the time is upon us
> 2007-08-01T14:58:36  <dbs> wtd: Sigh. Check my blog post.
> 2007-08-01T14:58:37  <wtd> Everyone load up their channel loggers.
> 2007-08-01T14:59:00  <jaf> roll call, please: let's make sure folks
> are active
> 2007-08-01T14:59:02  <jaf> I'm here
> 2007-08-01T14:59:05  <ksclarke> here
> 2007-08-01T14:59:12  <rsinger> tom servo!
> 2007-08-01T14:59:12  <jbrinley> moo
> 2007-08-01T14:59:14  <jrochkind> I'm observing.
> 2007-08-01T14:59:16  <rsinger> croooooooooooooooooooow!
> 2007-08-01T14:59:25  <wtd> I'm here. I have an account on anvil (no
> root) and host a Rails site on it.
> 2007-08-01T14:59:33  <ksclarke> edsu back yet?
> 2007-08-01T14:59:40  <wickr> I'm observing
> 2007-08-01T14:59:43  <wtd> anvil.lisforge.net, that is, the box
> that got hacked.
> 2007-08-01T14:59:49  <jbrinley> .seen edsu
> 2007-08-01T14:59:49  <zoia> jbrinley: edsu was last seen in
> #code4lib 4 hours, 18 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <edsu> like the
> librarything guys talk, and others
> 2007-08-01T15:00:09  <jaf> my local clock says 11:59, so let's wait
> another minute or so
> 2007-08-01T15:00:17  <ksclarke> sounds good
> 2007-08-01T15:00:20  <wickr> edsu said he might be able to pop in
> for a bit, and he might not
> 2007-08-01T15:00:35  <rsinger> plus, these are library types-- we
> need to give the customary 5 minutes
> 2007-08-01T15:00:38  * rordway is here
> 2007-08-01T15:00:43  <ksclarke> rsinger++
> 2007-08-01T15:00:56  <jaf> ok, well, we probably should begin the
> discussion
> 2007-08-01T15:00:57  <rordway> according to my Mac, it's now 12:00
> 2007-08-01T15:01:06  <jaf> the proposal on the table, as I
> understand it, is thus:
> 2007-08-01T15:01:18  <jaf> move the production version of
> code4lib.org over to a server here at OSU
> 2007-08-01T15:01:25  *** rob_desk has joined #code4lib
> 2007-08-01T15:01:30  <jaf> use anvil as a development enivornment
> 2007-08-01T15:01:41  <jaf> and set up policies for admin support
> and access of code4lib.org
> 2007-08-01T15:01:51  <wtd> Is that *.code4lib.org? journal, planet,
> etc?
> 2007-08-01T15:02:02  <jaf> wtd: yes, *.code4lib.org
> 2007-08-01T15:02:06  <rsinger> hrm
> 2007-08-01T15:02:12  <rsinger> dilettantes?
> 2007-08-01T15:02:15  <jaf> so, currently we are talking www,
> planet, and journal
> 2007-08-01T15:02:16  *** tholbroo has quit IRC
> 2007-08-01T15:02:29  <rsinger> jaf: there's more -- svn
> 2007-08-01T15:02:35  <jaf> ok, and svn :)
> 2007-08-01T15:02:37  <ksclarke> and trac
> 2007-08-01T15:02:38  <jaf> and trac
> 2007-08-01T15:02:39  <rsinger> trac?
> 2007-08-01T15:02:40  <rsinger> yeah
> 2007-08-01T15:02:46  <jrochkind> ++
> 2007-08-01T15:02:52  <wtd> There are about, what, ten other more or
> less production sites hosted on the box?
> 2007-08-01T15:03:01  <jaf> wtd: what are those?
> 2007-08-01T15:03:05  <jrochkind> Will OSU donate this service?
> Does this include sysadmin staffing, or just hardware/network, or
> what?
> 2007-08-01T15:03:17  <ksclarke> wtd, what, code4lib things or other
> people's things?
> 2007-08-01T15:03:17  <rordway> [a-zA-Z+].code4lib? :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:03:38  <ksclarke> we're only talking code4lib stuff I
> believe
> 2007-08-01T15:03:43  <wtd> Ah, OK.
> 2007-08-01T15:03:46  <jaf> jrochkind: we are donating the server
> space, bandwith, and will support the software running on the box
> in terms of security and uptime
> 2007-08-01T15:03:52  <jrochkind> Awesome.
> 2007-08-01T15:03:59  <wtd> So this is a sort of formalization and
> Oregon State adoption of code4lib.org as an online presence.
> 2007-08-01T15:04:06  <ksclarke> osu++
> 2007-08-01T15:04:08  <jaf> but we'd also like some commitment from
> the community for helping with the general admin of the software
> 2007-08-01T15:04:12  <rsinger> hmm
> 2007-08-01T15:04:17  <rsinger> i'm still not sure about this
> 2007-08-01T15:04:18  <jaf> wtd: no
> 2007-08-01T15:04:31  <ksclarke> so how will you manage letting
> people have the privs for that help, jaf?
> 2007-08-01T15:04:33  <jbrinley> jaf: commitment of what sort?
> 2007-08-01T15:04:37  <rsinger> 1) my online presence is in the
> code4lib.org domain
> 2007-08-01T15:04:49  <jaf> in other words, we're not going to set
> policies on / about code4lib.org
> 2007-08-01T15:04:52  <bradl> jaf: sounds like you have it handled :)
> 2007-08-01T15:05:01  <jaf> we're going to commit to a level of
> support to assure uptime
> 2007-08-01T15:05:09  <ksclarke> yeah, rsinger, yours is the
> exception (personal in the domain)
> 2007-08-01T15:05:12  <jaf> but other than that, it's still the
> community that controls c4l.org
> 2007-08-01T15:05:15  <rsinger> 2) what if, say, osu counsel (or
> anyone in the chain) objected to something in the code4lib.org
> domain and wanted it to be taken down?
> 2007-08-01T15:05:18  <jrochkind> We would want to make sure that
> OSU disclaims any ownership of any 'intellectual property' on
> *.code4lib.org. If minds are changed later, we want no legal
> barriers to moving it somewhere else.
> 2007-08-01T15:05:43  <jaf> rsinger, jrochkind: no problems there.
> We claim no copyright / ownership of the content
> 2007-08-01T15:06:01  <ksclarke> and not even any osu branding right
> jaf?
> 2007-08-01T15:06:07  <wtd> OSU providing free hosting, bandwidth,
> and tech support, and having no say over any content or
> administration, sounds pretty damn useful.
> 2007-08-01T15:06:08  <rsinger> jaf: is that actually feasible?  i
> mean, legally?
> 2007-08-01T15:06:12  <jaf> rsinger: yes
> 2007-08-01T15:06:13  <ksclarke> but do you have policies for the
> type of material that you all can host?
> 2007-08-01T15:06:14  <rsinger> isn't osu liable at some point?
> 2007-08-01T15:06:15  <jaf> ksclarke: yes
> 2007-08-01T15:06:29  <jrochkind> Also, that the DNS were set up so
> things running on the current anvil can still run at
> [various].code4lib.org . So if you prefer to run a code4lib
> domained service not on OSU, you still could.
> 2007-08-01T15:06:30  <rordway> jaf is liable :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:06:31  <jaf> rsinger: are you going to make us liable
> for something? ;-)
> 2007-08-01T15:06:43  <rsinger> don't i always?
> 2007-08-01T15:07:00  <ksclarke> jrochkind, that would be nec. for
> rsinger's dila...
> 2007-08-01T15:07:05  <jaf> as long as truly illegal stuff doesn't
> happen on c4l.org, we should be fine
> 2007-08-01T15:07:08  <jrochkind> That's what I'm thinking.
> 2007-08-01T15:07:16  <jaf> i.e. no pr0n, illegal filesharing, etc.
> 2007-08-01T15:07:23  <rsinger> jaf: i guess i'm trying to make sure
> that all our t's are crossed and whatnot
> 2007-08-01T15:07:36  <jrochkind> anvil is still available for
> hosting *.code4lib.org, so long as it's owners want to keep making
> it available. But things that we want to be uptime-guaranteed, we
> can put on the OSU server.
> 2007-08-01T15:07:39  <ksclarke> jaf: after all illegal filesharing
> is why we have anvil
> 2007-08-01T15:07:41  <jaf> rsinger: you cross your t's? Sounds like
> an a-type personality to me.....
> 2007-08-01T15:07:43  <rordway> ksclarke: we have policies for what
> we can host, but I don't think there is anything that would be of
> conflict
> 2007-08-01T15:07:44  <ksclarke> just joking
> 2007-08-01T15:08:07  <rsinger> jaf: the advantage to it having
> lived in neutral territory thus far is that the issue of governance
> hasn't been an issue
> 2007-08-01T15:08:15  <jrochkind> If OSU gives us problems---the
> content on the OSU server can always be moved away. (Although of
> course that would be a pain in the ass nobody would look forward to).
> 2007-08-01T15:08:17  <jaf> so, another thing: Domain ownership is
> still with edsu
> 2007-08-01T15:08:32  <rsinger> jaf: since none of the owners of the
> machine have cared to interfere
> 2007-08-01T15:08:35  <rsinger> (obviously)
> 2007-08-01T15:08:39  <jaf> so, yes, following up on jrochkind, if
> problems arise, things can be copied and pointed elsewhere
> 2007-08-01T15:08:40  <wtd> This is the equivalent of code4lib.org
> getting an unused office and a phone line and doing whatever it
> wants, basically.
> 2007-08-01T15:08:50  <jaf> wtd: yes
> 2007-08-01T15:08:59  * ksclarke chuckles
> 2007-08-01T15:08:59  <zoia> ksclarke: true, true
> 2007-08-01T15:09:12  <rsinger> wtd: i guess i'm just skeptical that
> there are no strings attached with that deal
> 2007-08-01T15:09:17  <jrochkind> wtd: And  OSU pays for the
> utilities, and for the plumber who needs to come biweekly for our
> leaky plumbing.
> 2007-08-01T15:09:32  <jaf> rsinger: so, what strings are you
> specifically worried about?
> 2007-08-01T15:09:38  <rsinger> or that somebody won't come in
> eventually to explain that the strings have always been there
> 2007-08-01T15:09:38  <ksclarke> jaf: I'm curious who will have
> login access to the box
> 2007-08-01T15:09:38  <jrochkind> Would a written contract make you
> feel better? Would OSU be willing to sign such? (Who would they
> sign it WITH, I don't know).
> 2007-08-01T15:10:04  <eby> finally around
> 2007-08-01T15:10:17  <jrochkind> As long as our content doesn't get
> held hostage, the worst case doesn't seem that bad to me. As long
> as the content can be moved elsewhere if strings do appear.
> 2007-08-01T15:10:20  <jaf> ksclarke: I think that's part of the
> discussion here. That's for the folks in the c4l community to
> decide, and Mr. Ordway to say, "that's doable"
> 2007-08-01T15:10:22  <ksclarke> not a having a who to sign it with
> is why it's not at princeton (which I thought about at one point)
> 2007-08-01T15:10:28  <rsinger> jaf: again, it comes down to
> governance -- government entities tend to be far more conservative
> about the sorts of services they host
> 2007-08-01T15:10:51  <jaf> rsinger: this is oregon, dude.
> 2007-08-01T15:10:54  <jaf> :)
> 2007-08-01T15:10:57  <ksclarke> rsinger: well any service can still
> be hosted from anvil if one of the box people want
> 2007-08-01T15:10:58  <rordway> haha
> 2007-08-01T15:11:00  *** caroldotou has quit IRC
> 2007-08-01T15:11:14  <mjgiarlo> "let's settle this over a case of PBR"
> 2007-08-01T15:11:20  <jaf> so, OSU has some precident here through
> the open source lab hosting for a variety of projects
> 2007-08-01T15:11:24  <rsinger> jaf: that may be, but i bet you're
> university lawyers are as chickenshit as any other university lawyers
> 2007-08-01T15:11:38  <rsinger> s/you're/your/
> 2007-08-01T15:11:44  <rordway> the only caveat that I'm aware of on
> our side is Network Engineering/IS has to approve of the hosting of
> the "domain", not even necessarily the content
> 2007-08-01T15:11:45  <eby> what's osu's policy on responding to
> complaints
> 2007-08-01T15:11:58  <jaf> eby: what type of complaints?
> 2007-08-01T15:12:01  <eby> inform, shutoff, delete?
> 2007-08-01T15:12:04  *** danja has quit IRC
> 2007-08-01T15:12:06  <eby> content or legal
> 2007-08-01T15:12:07  <rsinger> eby: that's more what i'm getting, i
> guess
> 2007-08-01T15:12:14  <ksclarke> rordway will this be on its own box
> or a shared machine?
> 2007-08-01T15:12:17  <jaf> i haven't had much experience on such
> 2007-08-01T15:12:30  <jaf> we've had some issues with pr0n being
> placed on our wiki via spammers
> 2007-08-01T15:12:39  <jaf> but those were handled directly
> 2007-08-01T15:13:03  <rordway> ksclarke: probably an isolated Xen
> guest
> 2007-08-01T15:13:05  <jaf> i imagine if a complaint were to occur,
> our network services would contact my boss, who would inform me
> 2007-08-01T15:13:11  <rordway> so effectively it would be dedicated
> 2007-08-01T15:13:28  <jaf> so, basically, at that point, it would
> be my roll to deal with whatever situation would occur
> 2007-08-01T15:13:47  <ksclarke> how many people are you comfortable
> with having access to the machine? is there a number?
> 2007-08-01T15:14:03  <rordway> and yes, usually NET gets a
> complaint, they usually forward it along to my group, Library
> Technology, and we handle it
> 2007-08-01T15:14:05  <jaf> but truly, are we anticipating some sort
> of content that would cause this?
> 2007-08-01T15:14:20  <ksclarke> and is there a way to decide who
> those people are? /me wonders aloud
> 2007-08-01T15:14:39  <rsinger> jaf: i think we need to to cover our
> asses
> 2007-08-01T15:14:43  <wtd> ksclarke: Wouldn't you start with who
> has codelib.org-related access to anvil, and grow from there?
> 2007-08-01T15:14:45  <eby> jaf: i don't expect directly but with a
> semi-open drupal it could come up indirectly
> 2007-08-01T15:14:48  <jaf> i mean, if I'm understanding what eby
> and rsinger are bringing up, is this the equivilant of a takedown
> notice brought on by something like the DMCA?
> 2007-08-01T15:15:03  <rsinger> or libel
> 2007-08-01T15:15:44  *** caroldotou has joined #code4lib
> 2007-08-01T15:15:47  <jaf> so, one benefit of having this at a
> public academic institution is that it's probably more difficult to
> have abuse of takedown notices via DMCA then at a normal ISP
> 2007-08-01T15:16:01  <ksclarke> wtd: not all the folks on anvil
> have any c4l leanings so I think that list would just be eby, me,
> edsu, you, rsinger
> 2007-08-01T15:16:26  <ksclarke> am I forgetting anyone?  I don't
> think credding or dfox have any desire to
> 2007-08-01T15:16:32  <wtd> Good enough to start with.
> 2007-08-01T15:16:33  <jaf> and we (OSU) have to deal with this on
> our wiki, with blogs, etc. so this issue wouldn't be particular to
> c4l.org
> 2007-08-01T15:16:52  <jrochkind> We could, from the start, set up
> some kind of mirroring routine to mirror OSU content to anvil. So
> with the flip of a DNS entry, it could be switched back to anvil.
> 2007-08-01T15:16:56  <jbrinley> wtd, ksclarke: I would like to
> request some sort of access for the journal, but it's not
> absolutely necessary
> 2007-08-01T15:16:59  <jrochkind> But that would take someone to
> work on setting that up. Not me.
> 2007-08-01T15:17:09  <ksclarke> jaf, but having access at the wiki
> level is a bit different than machine level
> 2007-08-01T15:17:18  <wtd> Given codelib.org's growth over the past
> n years, and foreseeable future, it sounds like it's just strange
> edge conditions that are the concern here.
> 2007-08-01T15:17:19  <jaf> jrochkind: I believe that the journal
> would be fine to be hosted on the production server
> 2007-08-01T15:17:49  <jrochkind> jaf: I assumed so. I really want a
> more uptime-confident host for the journal.
> 2007-08-01T15:17:58  <ksclarke> jrochkind: yeah, mirroring sounds
> good... I've had other offers as spots to mirror c4l too so we'd
> have multiple redundancy
> 2007-08-01T15:17:59  <jaf> ksclarke: true, but I'm trying to
> address rsinger's and eby's concerns. Command-line access is
> another issue to decide
> 2007-08-01T15:18:10  <jbrinley> jaf: I'm meaning access to load
> files, WP templates, etc., for admining the journal website.
> 2007-08-01T15:18:10  <rordway> ksclarke: oh, actually that would be
> a pair of Xen guests behind our foundry serveriron
> 2007-08-01T15:18:13  <wtd> Would the box fit into any existing OSU
> service level agreements?
> 2007-08-01T15:18:28  <ksclarke> osu --> anvil + others
> 2007-08-01T15:18:48  <jrochkind> jaf: Yeah, we'd need command line
> access (although not root, of course) for many of these services, I
> think. To provide the software management you want us to provide.
> Otherwise it'll be way too much work for your admins responding to
> our requests.
> 2007-08-01T15:18:56  <jbrinley> jaf: right now I give files to eby
> and eby uploads them for me
> 2007-08-01T15:19:07  <eby> wtd: i think the community tends to be
> open and there might be concerns by others about their freedom to
> express. It doesn't really bother me
> 2007-08-01T15:19:09  <ksclarke> jbrinley, yeah you should have
> machine access I think
> 2007-08-01T15:19:24  <ksclarke> on the prod
> 2007-08-01T15:19:32  <jaf> jrochkind, jbrinley: right, these are
> details that can be worked out, I think. The policies wouldn't be
> decided by OSU, but by us, the c4l community
> 2007-08-01T15:19:51  <jbrinley> jaf: good point. A discussion for
> another day.
> 2007-08-01T15:20:04  <eby> jaf: are you still with innovative
> 2007-08-01T15:20:06  <njvack> jaf: There must be a University-wide
> network use policy at OSU...? We'd probably need to follow that.
> 2007-08-01T15:20:07  <wtd> About the root question, OSU would have
> root access, but just use it for adminning, and others would have
> root as decided?
> 2007-08-01T15:20:07  <jrochkind> As long as it's clear that we will
> not have constraints we do not want from OSU.
> 2007-08-01T15:20:15  <jaf> what I would recommend, putting my c4l
> hat on, is that we set up policies that help us keep c4l.org secure
> and up and running
> 2007-08-01T15:20:15  <gabe> helen_thomas++
> 2007-08-01T15:20:22  <jrochkind> jaf insists we will not. rsinger
> is not entirely convinced.
> 2007-08-01T15:20:50  <jaf> eby: yes, we are still with innovative.
> please don't hold it against us :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:21:11  <ksclarke> jaf: policies, heh, now see that's
> why this will never work on anvil ;-)
> 2007-08-01T15:21:20  <jrochkind> To me, it's cost-benefit. I agree
> with rsinger that is a risk of OSU attaching strings at a later
> date. I think it's worth the risk, especially if we from the start
> have a game plan as to what we'll do in that case (move the stuff
> away if neccesary) and how (by setting up mirroring to make it
> easy, etc.).
> 2007-08-01T15:21:20  <rordway> the only time that OSU would have to
> step in is if something within the site were violating the
> university AUP, which the only time that would happen I would
> imagine would be if the system were somehow compromised and was
> hosting pr0n or warez
> 2007-08-01T15:21:24  <jaf> njvack: I don't have any such policy
> immediately handy, but as I've stated, there is precident here at
> OSU for hosting these types of sites
> 2007-08-01T15:21:30  <gabe> oops, sorry for the interruption -- /me
> reads scrollback
> 2007-08-01T15:21:40  <ksclarke> I'm for using osu as production as
> long as we aren't tied in in anyway and can always do what we want
> in the future
> 2007-08-01T15:21:59  <jaf> ksclarke: yes, I think that's key. There
> is an exit policy if folks aren't happy with us hosting the site
> 2007-08-01T15:22:02  <rordway> and the way that is usually handled
> is usually fairly informal. NET contacts Library Technology (me and
> others), and we remove the offending content
> 2007-08-01T15:22:10  <jrochkind> rordway: Or cataloging records
> that some Big Library claims are their IP? Same as warez to the
> university lawyers. But I say, okay, so we put THOSE on anvil not
> at OSU.
> 2007-08-01T15:22:26  <ksclarke> and as jrochkind says we have the
> redundant servers in place to make that easy
> 2007-08-01T15:22:31  <rsinger> hrm
> 2007-08-01T15:22:32  <rordway> right
> 2007-08-01T15:22:45  <wtd> +1 from me too, "as long as we aren't
> tied in any way and can always do what we want," as ksclarke put it.
> 2007-08-01T15:22:46  <jaf> So, I think the key here is that as long
> as we keep the agreement with OSU informal, we have a lot of
> flexibility and can make this work easily
> 2007-08-01T15:22:48  <rsinger> rordway: but who decides 'offending
> content'?
> 2007-08-01T15:23:13  <wtd> What jaf and rordway sketch out sounds
> appealing.
> 2007-08-01T15:23:16  <jrochkind> jaf: As long as you are still at
> OSU, anyway, I think the risk is low. But you won't be there forever.
> 2007-08-01T15:23:19  <eby> rsinger: innovative calling their director?
> 2007-08-01T15:23:27  <rsinger> eby: that's what i'm getting at
> 2007-08-01T15:23:33  <jaf> jrochkind: is anything forever? ;-)
> 2007-08-01T15:23:53  <jrochkind> Despite what jaf and rordway say,
> I think we should realize there is indeed some risk of University
> Lawyers. I just think it's worth it, especially if we have a game
> plan for dealing with it.
> 2007-08-01T15:23:55  *** Cicer0 has joined #code4lib
> 2007-08-01T15:23:58  * rordway is looking for the AUP
> 2007-08-01T15:24:04  <jaf> so, trust me on this, III has no
> influence on what we say or do
> 2007-08-01T15:24:04  <rsinger> my point is that 'threat of
> litigation' is generally enough to make university lawyers buckle
> 2007-08-01T15:24:16  <jaf> I mean, has anyone seen any of reeset's
> presentations? ;-)
> 2007-08-01T15:24:22  <jrochkind> The university lawyers are
> unlikely to object to journal.code4lib.org, or with code4lib
> conference info. Those are the kinds of things we want more
> confident uptime for.
> 2007-08-01T15:24:42  <jrochkind> For things that are risky, you can
> keep hosting them on your own server---still with a *.code4lib.org
> domain name even (just not www.).
> 2007-08-01T15:25:06  * mjgiarlo wonders if chat logs are risky :)
> 2007-08-01T15:25:10  <wtd> Wouldn't take long to swing over to
> another box hosted elsewhere, in the worst case.
> 2007-08-01T15:25:11  <rsinger> mjgiarlo: YES
> 2007-08-01T15:25:12  <rordway> http://oregonstate.edu/aup.htm
> 2007-08-01T15:25:17  <njvack> Aha: http://oregonstate.edu/aup.htm
> 2007-08-01T15:25:18  <jaf> So, let me just repeat: I have no
> worries about the content we put on c4l.org being censered
> 2007-08-01T15:25:19  <rsinger> that's what i'm getting at
> 2007-08-01T15:25:22  <eby> jrochkind: i could see some journal
> articles that could cause some heckles with vendors
> 2007-08-01T15:25:34  <mjgiarlo> ! oh hai, III is teh sux0r.  DOH!
> 2007-08-01T15:25:39  <jrochkind> eby: I suppose it's possible.
> Violationg of NDA or whatever.
> 2007-08-01T15:25:56  <wtd> That's up to the journal to deal with.
> 2007-08-01T15:26:01  <jrochkind> eby: If the University wouldn't
> stand up for it, we'd move the journal elsewhere. And get lots of
> publicity ensuring that the journal's readership would double, in
> the process. :)
> 2007-08-01T15:26:10  <jbrinley> jrochkind++
> 2007-08-01T15:26:15  <jaf> and I have total confidence in the folks
> here working with the community to deal with any issues that crop up
> 2007-08-01T15:26:25  <jaf> if that means at some point moving to
> another hosting site, that's fine
> 2007-08-01T15:26:34  <bradl> I know folks don't seem to like the
> idea, but to me, I would think code4lib should form a non-profit
> corp, and host the server where-ever it damn well pleases, with
> money it makes from donations and the annual conference... just my
> opinion
> 2007-08-01T15:26:51  <JodiS> bradl: +1
> 2007-08-01T15:26:57  <jaf> bradl: that would be fine
> 2007-08-01T15:27:01  <jaf> but we need the site back up
> 2007-08-01T15:27:02  <eby> bradl: i think many were for that idea,
> none for the paper work
> 2007-08-01T15:27:05  <mjgiarlo> rsinger: yeah, maybe chat logs go
> elsewhere.  (wherever that crappy dilletantes thing goes)
> 2007-08-01T15:27:06  <jrochkind> bradl: Nobody wants to do the work
> of sysadmining it in a way that will give us some uptime
> confidence. I mean, that's basically the current situation, what
> you just outlined.
> 2007-08-01T15:27:07  * jbrinley wonders if c4lj should sell ad space
> 2007-08-01T15:27:12  <jaf> or there will be no conference, becuase
> no one will no about it
> 2007-08-01T15:27:16  <rordway> as long as we're not hosting
> anything *illegal*, at least by Oregon law, or selling viagra,
> we're good by the AUP
> 2007-08-01T15:27:20  <jdatema> seems to me ibiblio may also be a
> natural home--only policy I know about is that content has to be
> non-profit
> 2007-08-01T15:27:20  <dbs> jbrinley--
> 2007-08-01T15:27:22  <jrochkind> bradl: Money for hardware/
> bandwidth isn't the issue. We are not lacking in that already.
> 2007-08-01T15:27:42  <bradl> jrochkind: I don't think we're lacking
> in sysadmins around here, either...
> 2007-08-01T15:27:54  <jaf> so, can we take a straw vote right now?
> 2007-08-01T15:28:01  <bradl> I run around 90 servers. I can commit
> to admin'ing 1 more
> 2007-08-01T15:28:02  <ksclarke> jdatema: but there has to be a
> nonprofit to sign the papers right?
> 2007-08-01T15:28:06  <jrochkind> bradl: Are you volunteering to
> sysadmin a code4lib server in such a way that we will have as much
> uptime confidence as we would at OSU?
> 2007-08-01T15:28:08  <dbs> Sorry: jbrinley++ but c4lj_adspace--
> 2007-08-01T15:28:14  <jbrinley> :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:28:22  <jrochkind> Cause if you are, that's certainly
> worth considering.
> 2007-08-01T15:28:25  *** got_a_bean_out is now known as got_a_bean
> 2007-08-01T15:28:33  <jaf> I propose a straw vote for/against
> currently hosting *.code4lib.org at OSU, understanding that the c4l
> community can at any time decide to move the site elsewhere
> 2007-08-01T15:28:43  <jdatema> ksclarke: good question—know
> librarian.net is hosted there, but it's one person, etc. (you
> thinking 403(b)?)
> 2007-08-01T15:28:44  <mjgiarlo> +1 to moving ahead on a vote
> 2007-08-01T15:28:45  <jaf> sites, that is
> 2007-08-01T15:28:47  <rsinger> dbs: what would be so bad about
> adspace?
> 2007-08-01T15:28:48  <bradl> jrochkind: I think OSU's solution is
> fine... I always prefer someone else do the work :)
> 2007-08-01T15:28:52  <wtd> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:28:53  <bradl> jaf++
> 2007-08-01T15:28:55  <jrochkind> bradl: My sentiments exactly.
> 2007-08-01T15:29:02  <njvack> jaf++
> 2007-08-01T15:29:08  <jrochkind> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:29:08  <rsinger> for the record, i am in agreement
> with all this
> 2007-08-01T15:29:13  <ksclarke> jdatema: princeton would have given
> us space but there had to be a real non-profit that could sign
> 2007-08-01T15:29:16  <jbrinley> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:29:22  <rsinger> i would just like to see something
> in writing
> 2007-08-01T15:29:23  <ksclarke> 403b
> 2007-08-01T15:29:38  <jrochkind> I agree with rsinger that we
> should be cognizant that University Lawyer Trouble IS a risk. Let
> the record show. If it happens, we will take appropriate counter-
> measures.
> 2007-08-01T15:29:39  <bradl> I think the longer-term solution is a
> non-profit, though
> 2007-08-01T15:29:45  <dbs> +1 (osu hosts php.net servers, IIRC, and
> lord knows _their_ code is offensive!)
> 2007-08-01T15:29:46  <jaf> so, let's pause the conversation for the
> straw-vote:
> 2007-08-01T15:29:48  <jdatema> paul jones@ibiblio (and simon spero
> for backchannel information) could answer the non-profit question--
> I'm not sure
> 2007-08-01T15:29:49  <jaf> +1 or -1, people
> 2007-08-01T15:29:55  * miker_ is a wonder twin and takes the form
> of new york, circa 1776
> 2007-08-01T15:29:55  <jbrinley> ksclarke: why are we talking about
> variable annuities?
> 2007-08-01T15:30:01  <rordway> dbs: sadly
> 2007-08-01T15:30:15  <njvack> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:30:17  <wickr> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:30:32  <mjgiarlo> that's six +1s in favor of a vote
> 2007-08-01T15:30:32  <jbrinley> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:30:34  <rsinger> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:30:38  <ksclarke> bradl: this is a good question I think
> 2007-08-01T15:30:39  <bradl> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:30:42  <rordway> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:30:53  <ksclarke> if we're formal enough for a prod
> machine are we for a nonprofit
> 2007-08-01T15:30:57  <ksclarke> but yes +1
> 2007-08-01T15:31:06  <Cicer0> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:31:10  <bradl> ksclarke: I don't think the paperwork
> is as scary as some think :)
> 2007-08-01T15:31:12  <jaf> ksclarke: we may be, but that's another
> discussion :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:31:15  <dbs> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:31:16  <got_a_bean> pardon me, but OSU as in...?
> 2007-08-01T15:31:23  <rordway> Oregon State University
> 2007-08-01T15:31:23  <jbrinley> got_a_bean: Oregon
> 2007-08-01T15:31:29  <got_a_bean> o.k.
> 2007-08-01T15:31:30  <rordway> not Ohio
> 2007-08-01T15:31:32  <got_a_bean> +1
> 2007-08-01T15:31:32  <rordway> :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:31:41  *** tholbroo has joined #code4lib
> 2007-08-01T15:31:44  <ksclarke> if it had been ohio -1 ;-)
> 2007-08-01T15:31:48  <miker_> yeah, as long as it's not /Ohio/,
> then +1
> 2007-08-01T15:31:49  <mjgiarlo> ksclarke++
> 2007-08-01T15:31:52  * bradl chuckles
> 2007-08-01T15:31:52  <zoia> bradl: true, true
> 2007-08-01T15:31:54  <rordway> haha
> 2007-08-01T15:31:57  <miker_> bah ... beat me to it
> 2007-08-01T15:32:06  <wtd> So that's all votes in favour, I think.
> 2007-08-01T15:32:06  <jaf> ok, so it's seemingly a concensus
> 2007-08-01T15:32:11  <jbrinley> so is anyone actually opposed at
> this point?
> 2007-08-01T15:32:15  <jaf> but just to do a last check-in, any
> objectors?
> 2007-08-01T15:32:26  <bradl> we want a shrubbery
> 2007-08-01T15:32:32  <jdatema> is libraryfind a company?
> 2007-08-01T15:32:37  <njvack> FWIW, I have a friend who recently
> set up a nonprofit, and it's certainly do-able.
> 2007-08-01T15:32:38  <jaf> jdatema: nope
> 2007-08-01T15:32:45  <rordway> does anyone have any questions for
> me? or can I mosey?
> 2007-08-01T15:32:47  <wtd> So what happens next?
> 2007-08-01T15:32:54  <wtd> rordway: Thanks.
> 2007-08-01T15:32:55  <jaf> rordway: one sec on that
> 2007-08-01T15:32:58  <rordway> k
> 2007-08-01T15:32:58  <jbrinley> njvack: setting it up is doable.
> Maintaining the accounting is less desirable.
> 2007-08-01T15:33:00  <wickr> was there a consensus on where chat
> logs go?
> 2007-08-01T15:33:03  <mjgiarlo> we just voted on having a vote,
> correct, not on moving forward with OSU?
> 2007-08-01T15:33:04  <rsinger> rordway: one question
> 2007-08-01T15:33:16  <jrochkind> ksclarke: These days it costs $800
> in filing fees for 501-c-3, sadly. It's gone up a lot in the past 5
> years.
> 2007-08-01T15:33:18  <jdatema> jaf: thanks
> 2007-08-01T15:33:23  <jaf> mjgiarlo: no, we were voting on moving
> forward with OSU
> 2007-08-01T15:33:26  <njvack> jbrinley: True... but our books can't
> be too very complex.
> 2007-08-01T15:33:30  <jrochkind> The paperwork is a pain in the
> ass, but do-able.
> 2007-08-01T15:33:33  <rsinger> rordway: this will live on a xen vm,
> right?
> 2007-08-01T15:33:42  <rordway> rsinger: that's my current plan, yes
> 2007-08-01T15:33:47  <mjgiarlo> jaf: oh.  +1 then.
> 2007-08-01T15:34:02  <jaf> so, the next step would be for ordway
> and ksclarke to work out a migration plan?
> 2007-08-01T15:34:07  <rsinger> rordway: would the plan be that
> code4lib.org (the thing we replicate elsewhere) will the be
> entirety of that vm?
> 2007-08-01T15:34:15  <ksclarke> jaf: well edsu has the backups
> 2007-08-01T15:34:26  <rordway> if for some reason I decide against
> a xen VM, it will be a dedicated system
> 2007-08-01T15:34:28  <ksclarke> I'm going to take out the old anvil
> drive once I get access to the machine
> 2007-08-01T15:34:32  <jrochkind> Then there's probably no reason
> that non-OSU code4libbers couldn't have root to the VM machine, yes?
> 2007-08-01T15:34:34  <ksclarke> but his should be good
> 2007-08-01T15:34:35  <rsinger> rordway: i.e., can we just make a
> snapshot of that vm and put it on anvil (or whereever)?
> 2007-08-01T15:34:40  <jaf> ksclarke: ok, then rordway, ksclarke,
> edsu would start talking about the migration plan
> 2007-08-01T15:34:44  <miker_> migration plan: 1) scp tarball to osu
> 2) untar
> 2007-08-01T15:34:45  <jrochkind> rsinger++
> 2007-08-01T15:34:46  <miker_> ;)
> 2007-08-01T15:34:57  <ksclarke> miker++
> 2007-08-01T15:34:59  <jrochkind> I like a nightly snapshot of that
> vm backed up to non-OSU location.
> 2007-08-01T15:35:23  <miker_> rsinger: if it's a xen vm we can
> migrate it to other xen servers at will :)
> 2007-08-01T15:35:25  <rordway> jrochkind: sudo would probably be
> easiest, but yes
> 2007-08-01T15:35:26  <rsinger> of course, that assumes it's a
> dedicated vm
> 2007-08-01T15:35:34  <jrochkind> [Our new sysadmin (hooray!) plans
> to make a lot of use of VMs like that here. I love having a new
> sysadmin!]
> 2007-08-01T15:35:44  <ksclarke> rsinger: should we do xen on the
> new anvil?
> 2007-08-01T15:35:45  * miker_ installs xen HV on his home box
> 2007-08-01T15:36:05  <wickr> does anyone know if some specific
> software was the culprit? do things need to be updated? or if they
> are just moved straight over will we have cracking issues again?
> 2007-08-01T15:36:11  <jrochkind> Ah, I see in the scrollback that
> dedicated system is not assured. That would certainly be preferable
> to meet the concerns that were raised.
> 2007-08-01T15:36:17  <jrochkind> With a dedicated VM, I think it's
> be almost perfect.
> 2007-08-01T15:36:21  * ksclarke wonders if ubuntu server does xen
> 2007-08-01T15:36:24  <rsinger> ksclarke: well, i don't really know
> one way or the other -- but a vm would be an easy way to share the
> 'host'
> 2007-08-01T15:36:34  <rsinger> ksclarke: yeah, xen is in apt
> 2007-08-01T15:36:42  <jaf> ok, how about this as an approach:
> 2007-08-01T15:36:54  <miker_> ksclarke: I think it does
> 2007-08-01T15:37:24  <ksclarke> hmm
> 2007-08-01T15:37:36  <rsinger> also, i don't see any reason why the
> logs and whatnot can't just stay on anvil
> 2007-08-01T15:37:43  <wtd> Does anyone have dates in mind for when
> the server would be back up, when content could get loaded up?
> 2007-08-01T15:37:56  <mjgiarlo> logs_on_anvil++
> 2007-08-01T15:38:19  <ksclarke> wtd: I'm being scheduled for
> getting my access pass so hopefully this week
> 2007-08-01T15:38:21  <jrochkind> If there's anything that someone
> has a strong preference to keep on anvil, and the anvil owners get
> it back up and allow it, I don't see any reason not to.
> 2007-08-01T15:38:37  <jrochkind> Unless there are others involved
> who have a strong preference the other way, and then they've got to
> duke it out.
> 2007-08-01T15:38:37  <ksclarke> but edsu has the logs so c4l could
> go up anytime they're transferred to osu
> 2007-08-01T15:38:48  <rordway> how about jaf and I work with
> ksclarke and edsu on a proposal, once that's ready we can float it
> by the group as a whole?
> 2007-08-01T15:38:50  <ksclarke> s/logs/c4l backups/
> 2007-08-01T15:39:00  <wtd> Sounds great, rordway.
> 2007-08-01T15:39:02  <mjgiarlo> rordway++
> 2007-08-01T15:39:05  <ksclarke> sounds good
> 2007-08-01T15:39:06  <jrochkind> rordway++
> 2007-08-01T15:39:08  <jaf> rordway++
> 2007-08-01T15:39:24  <rsinger> yeah, i like that
> 2007-08-01T15:39:38  <wtd> I'll put a little update onto the planet
> to assuage people's anxieties.
> 2007-08-01T15:39:40  <rordway> and FYI, this system would be backed
> up nightly
> 2007-08-01T15:39:49  <jaf> ok, so, maybe to sum up the decision
> points on this discussion:
> 2007-08-01T15:39:52  <mjgiarlo> wtd++ :)
> 2007-08-01T15:40:10  <rordway> monthly fulls, nightly incrementals
> 2007-08-01T15:40:14  <jaf> 1) General agreement that we will go
> ahead withan approach for OSU hosting the *.c4l.org site
> 2007-08-01T15:40:15  <jrochkind> rordway: The 'backups' I was
> talking to actually were 'in case of University Lawyer Trouble'. To
> assuage the paranoid that with a flip of a switch we could put the
> whole site up on a non-OSU machine, were it ever neccesary.
> 2007-08-01T15:40:27  <ksclarke> wtd: i see in my inbox I pick up my
> pass tom. so anvil should be up tom. after that
> 2007-08-01T15:40:45  <jaf> 2) rordway will take the lead in working
> with edsu, myself, and ksclarke on the actual details of a proposal
> for moving forward with said hosting
> 2007-08-01T15:40:48  <rordway> jrochkind: for those purposes, we
> could also do a periodic dump to someplace outside of OSU
> 2007-08-01T15:40:54  <jrochkind> rordway++
> 2007-08-01T15:41:04  <jaf> 3) proposal will be then floated to the
> c4l community via the discussion list
> 2007-08-01T15:41:15  <dbs> jrochkind: Get a Canadian to host a copy
> of the backup. Lots of copies keep things safe (from disaster, and
> from fickle federal laws).
> 2007-08-01T15:41:25  <njvack> BTW, do we know what attack vector
> the crackers used?
> 2007-08-01T15:41:31  <jrochkind> dbs: Canadian, pah. I'm going to
> get an Iraqi to do it. Wait a second, nevermind.
> 2007-08-01T15:41:57  <rordway> a remote hot-site on Mars?
> 2007-08-01T15:41:57  <ksclarke> njvack: no
> 2007-08-01T15:42:13  <gabe> ksclarke: wasn't it drupal?
> 2007-08-01T15:42:14  <rordway> is that inter-planetary network up
> and running yet?
> 2007-08-01T15:42:28  * dbs suspects it was edsu's weak username /
> password combo of "edsu" / "edsu"
> 2007-08-01T15:42:37  * ksclarke chuckles
> 2007-08-01T15:42:37  <zoia> ksclarke: true, true
> 2007-08-01T15:42:46  <rordway> haha
> 2007-08-01T15:42:50  <ksclarke> gabe, I don't think anyone has
> really done any real investigating
> 2007-08-01T15:42:54  <njvack> I ask, as I've found things like
> Drupal and Wordpress to be much bigger targets than OS vulnerabilities
> 2007-08-01T15:43:13  <ksclarke> wp or drupal would be my random off
> the cuff guess though
> 2007-08-01T15:43:18  *** lbjay has joined #code4lib
> 2007-08-01T15:43:21  <gabe> njvack: edsu seemed to think it was drupal
> 2007-08-01T15:43:24  <wickr> that's why I was wondering if
> something needs to be updated/patched before it's put back up
> elsewhere
> 2007-08-01T15:43:32  <rsinger> edsu was speculating
> 2007-08-01T15:43:52  <njvack> And if it was Drupal that got
> hacked... is OSU gonna be keeping *that* patched, or just the Xen
> client?
> 2007-08-01T15:44:11  <rordway> I'd probably import the data into a
> fresh install of the latest drupal
> 2007-08-01T15:44:26  <jaf> njvack: these are the kind of details, I
> think, that will be put into the proposed proposal
> 2007-08-01T15:44:40  <wickr> rordway: that may or may not go
> smoothly, def. worth a try though
> 2007-08-01T15:44:41  <rordway> njvack: jaf will do it
> 2007-08-01T15:45:03  <rsinger> does osu already have drupal
> installations?
> 2007-08-01T15:45:13  <jaf> rsinger: yeppers
> 2007-08-01T15:45:14  <rsinger> or should we consider migrating to
> another platform?
> 2007-08-01T15:45:15  <rsinger> ah
> 2007-08-01T15:45:57  <gabe> +1 on the vote, btw
> 2007-08-01T15:45:58  <rordway> we're most likely moving the
> library.o.e site to drupal, someday
> 2007-08-01T15:46:08  * gabe showed up late and got stuck in scrollback
> 2007-08-01T15:46:17  <rordway> and OSL runs drupal, as do some
> other groups on campus
> 2007-08-01T15:46:20  <ksclarke> migrate!
> 2007-08-01T15:46:26  <jrochkind> To what?
> 2007-08-01T15:46:39  <ksclarke> abd
> 2007-08-01T15:46:39  <rordway> cold fusion!
> 2007-08-01T15:46:46  <ksclarke> :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:46:47  <rordway> whee!
> 2007-08-01T15:46:56  <ksclarke> well, and cold fusion
> 2007-08-01T15:47:10  <rordway> maybe even warm fusion
> 2007-08-01T15:47:32  <rsinger> cocoon
> 2007-08-01T15:47:45  <jaf> gopher
> 2007-08-01T15:47:53  <rsinger> gopher on rails
> 2007-08-01T15:48:04  <mjgiarlo> OSU++
> 2007-08-01T15:48:04  * jaf smacks rsinger
> 2007-08-01T15:48:14  <rordway> gopher on meth
> 2007-08-01T15:48:20  * njvack smacks rordway
> 2007-08-01T15:48:30  <rordway> it's high performance!
> 2007-08-01T15:48:35  <njvack> :)
> 2007-08-01T15:48:45  <rsinger> so, we're done?
> 2007-08-01T15:48:46  <gabe> if we wanted gopher we'd host at UofM
> 2007-08-01T15:49:26  <jaf> rsinger: i believe so, unless there are
> any objections?
> 2007-08-01T15:49:39  <rordway> I object to gopher
> 2007-08-01T15:49:57  <rordway> and the 40 hour work week
> 2007-08-01T15:50:01  <gabe> more pointed objections can be raised
> on the list
> 2007-08-01T15:50:04  <rordway> but I'm ok with everything else
> 2007-08-01T15:50:16  <gabe> re: the proposal
> 2007-08-01T15:50:21  <jaf> rordway: we can negotiate on the 40-hour
> work week, I'll start at 80 :-)
> 2007-08-01T15:50:30  <jaf> gabe++
> 2007-08-01T15:50:34  <wtd> Well, good discussion.
> 2007-08-01T15:50:41  <rordway> maybe if I get paid for 80
> 2007-08-01T15:50:57  <jaf> rordway: hmmm, maybe in barbeque
> 2007-08-01T15:51:05  *** wtd has left #code4lib
> 2007-08-01T15:51:28  <rordway> I'd settle for some PC2700 DDR for
> my Sun Blade 1500
> 2007-08-01T15:51:53  <jaf> ok, I need to eat. Later folks
> 2007-08-01T15:51:56  *** jaf is now known as jaf_lunch
> 2007-08-01T15:51:57  <rordway> me too
> 2007-08-01T15:52:36  *** mjgiarlo changes topic to "gopher!  (Was:
> discussion on hosting code4lib.org)"

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