Have people found Django fairly usable without using its ORM  
features?  I'm not a big ORM fan, and it seems that so many Python  
frameworks sort of fall over if you try to get around the ORM.

It's a bit of a shame, because I like Python.  I wish Bottle and Flask  
were a little easier to work with.  It feels a little weird having to  
configure WSGI for each application.  I love their minimalist approach  
to templating, though.

Mark

On Oct 29, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Genny Engel wrote:

> I think the significant attributes of most programming languages are  
> adequately summarized here:
> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Code for Libraries [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of  
> William Sexton [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 7:24 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP vs. Python [was: Re: Django]
>
> I use Python and Django extensively, and think they're both great.  
> That said, also great is the very funny keynote by former flickr  
> engineer Cal Henderson at DjangoCon 2008, titled "Why I Hate  
> Django," which is on YouTube:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fr65PFqfk
>
> When he showed the slide I had to admit that the statement
>
> "-".join(array)
>
> is kind of a goofy way to do that, though maybe not "unforgivable."  
> Whenever I use join() now I chuckle a little in my mind.
>
> It's good to step back and re-evaluate your favorite tools from time- 
> to-time. If nothing else, the ability to analyze a platform for its  
> suitability to a need is key.
>
> Will
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Bennett wrote:
>
>> Having used Zope (python based) as our WEB server of choice since  
>> 1998 I am
>> urged to express my opinion that if you do choose to use python in  
>> your
>> projects then use a service designed for python use such as Zope,  
>> Django, et
>> al.  Zope is normally run in front of Apache as a virtual host.
>>
>> If you are going to use python then Zope is an excellent choice for
>> interacting with databases and using python to massage/manipulate  
>> results if
>> you need complex results from the database data.  I like that you  
>> can write
>> sql queries  just like you might use on the command line and save  
>> it as an
>> individual object for use by any number of other objects.
>>
>> What may be a simple example to some is a tutorial quiz I wrote for  
>> the WEB.
>> There are categories and each category has any number of questions  
>> along with
>> the answers in the database.  In the management portion, the  
>> administrator can
>> choose which categories are active and how many questions out of  
>> the total
>> available to pull from each category individually.  When the quiz  
>> page is
>> generated the correct number of questions are pulled randomly from  
>> the total
>> active questions for each category, some questions can be set as  
>> inactive.
>>
>> There are "database connectors" for PostgreSQL, MySQL, Oracle,  
>> odbc, and
>> others so you can choose any popular db or write your own  
>> connector.  And
>> there are python libraries written for these databases which prove  
>> very
>> useful.
>>
>> The main thing I like about python is that the syntax pretty much  
>> forces your
>> code to be readable by others because indention is part of the  
>> syntax rather
>> than semicolons, parens, etc.
>>
>> I don't know PHP in detail but am learning more quickly because the  
>> University
>> is "forcing" all departments to move to Drupal and we will be  
>> running our site
>> on Drupal within a year probably although some administrative tasks  
>> will still
>> be running on our Zope server.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> ps: remember my point is that "IF" you choose to use python this  
>> supports its
>> use with databases and scripting.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday 27 October 2010 20:49:06 you wrote:
>>> Olá, como vai?
>>>
>>> Luciano Ramalho <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> Actually, Python is a general purpose programming language. It  
>>>> was not
>>>> created specifically for server side scripting like PHP was. But  
>>>> it is
>>>> very suitable to that task.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure talking about what something used to be is as  
>>> interesting
>>> as talking about what it is. Both Pyhton and PHP can share whatever
>>> moniker we choose (scripting-language, programming language,
>>> real-time, half-time, bytecoded, virtual, etc.).
>>>
>>>>> Not seen any scientific packages, but I've seen a few ray-tracers,
>>>>> although they're all demo apps and fun toys (although I think that
>>>>> applies to Python, too).
>>>>
>>>> No, that does not apply to Python. Python is widely used for  
>>>> hardcore
>>>> scientific computing.
>>>
>>> I was referring to the ray-tracing part.
>>>
>>>> It is also the most important scripting language in large scale CGI
>>>> settings
>>>
>>> Yes, Python is widely used for scripting up interfaces into other  
>>> more
>>> complex systems. But rarely is the core of the thing written  
>>> entirely
>>> in Python.
>>>
>>>>> Maybe your Google-foo is weak. :)
>>>>
>>>> Or maybe he's just realizing that outside of server side web
>>>> scripting, PHP is just not so widely used.
>>>
>>> Absolutely, and fair enough.
>>>
>>>> Having used both languages, I discovered that Python is easier for
>>>> most tasks, and one reason is that the libraries that come with  
>>>> Python
>>>> are extremely robust, well tested and consistent.
>>>
>>> Hmm. PHP is extremely robust and well-tested, but yes, it's not all
>>> that consistent, especially not before version 5.2+. However, things
>>> have moved on, and with release 6 around the corner things will be
>>> tighter still. Just like the first versions of Python were
>>> interesting, so was PHP's, but where the biggest problem with the
>>> evolution of PHP was the very fact that it was the most popular
>>> language for rapid web development by far.
>>>
>>>> PHP is very
>>>> practical for server-side web scripting, but it's libraries are
>>>> unfortunately full of gotchas, traps and unexpected behaviour.
>>>
>>> There's gotchas in every language, even Python.
>>>
>>>> A key reason for that is the fact that Python has always had an
>>>> exception-handling mechanism while PHP has grown something like  
>>>> that
>>>> only a few years ago
>>>
>>> True enough. But earlier versions of any language are less desirable
>>> than the latest versions, so I'm not sure this is a prevailing
>>> argument for the horribleness of PHP or any language. These things
>>> evolve. PHP 5.3+ and soon 6 are looking very good, indeed, but  
>>> yes, we
>>> will just have to live with a poor reputation brought on by the big
>>> number of users and the pre 5.2+ era.
>>>
>>>> So, I my opinion, PHP is great at what it does best: enabling quick
>>>> server-side Web scripting on almost any hosting service on Earth.
>>>
>>> I'm fairly sure you can say that because you haven't done much other
>>> kind of PHP work. :)
>>>
>>>> For everything else, it is very worthwhile to learn and use a  
>>>> general
>>>> purpose dynamic language such as Python, Ruby or Perl.
>>>
>>> Of course. Developers should learn many of languages, and choose
>>> wisely the language best suited to the problem at hand.
>>>
>>>> Sorry for the rant. I must confess I am a founder of the Brazilian
>>>> Python Association and was its first president, so you can call  
>>>> me a
>>>> Python advocate.
>>>
>>> No bias at all, really. :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ==========================================
>> Thomas McMillan Grant Bennett           Appalachian State University
>> Operations & Systems Analyst            P O Box 32026
>> University Library                                Boone, North  
>> Carolina 28608
>> (828) 262 6587
>>
>> Library Systems Help Desk: https://www.library.appstate.edu/help/
>> ==========================================