Mark- I would highly recommend looking at Tornado
(http://www.tornadoweb.org) as an alternative to using Django without
the ORM. It provides URL dispatch and templating capabilities without
commitment to a particular storage model, and is fast in standalone
use, without requiring extra scaffolding like WSGI. It has been an
extremely productive framework for me. - BPA
Bradley P. Allen
http://bradleypallen.org
On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Mark Tomko <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Have people found Django fairly usable without using its ORM features? I'm
> not a big ORM fan, and it seems that so many Python frameworks sort of fall
> over if you try to get around the ORM.
>
> It's a bit of a shame, because I like Python. I wish Bottle and Flask were
> a little easier to work with. It feels a little weird having to configure
> WSGI for each application. I love their minimalist approach to templating,
> though.
>
> Mark
>
> On Oct 29, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Genny Engel wrote:
>
>> I think the significant attributes of most programming languages are
>> adequately summarized here:
>>
>> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Code for Libraries [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of William
>> Sexton [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 7:24 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] PHP vs. Python [was: Re: Django]
>>
>> I use Python and Django extensively, and think they're both great. That
>> said, also great is the very funny keynote by former flickr engineer Cal
>> Henderson at DjangoCon 2008, titled "Why I Hate Django," which is on
>> YouTube:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fr65PFqfk
>>
>> When he showed the slide I had to admit that the statement
>>
>> "-".join(array)
>>
>> is kind of a goofy way to do that, though maybe not "unforgivable."
>> Whenever I use join() now I chuckle a little in my mind.
>>
>> It's good to step back and re-evaluate your favorite tools from
>> time-to-time. If nothing else, the ability to analyze a platform for its
>> suitability to a need is key.
>>
>> Will
>>
>>
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Bennett wrote:
>>
>>> Having used Zope (python based) as our WEB server of choice since 1998 I
>>> am
>>> urged to express my opinion that if you do choose to use python in your
>>> projects then use a service designed for python use such as Zope, Django,
>>> et
>>> al. Zope is normally run in front of Apache as a virtual host.
>>>
>>> If you are going to use python then Zope is an excellent choice for
>>> interacting with databases and using python to massage/manipulate results
>>> if
>>> you need complex results from the database data. I like that you can
>>> write
>>> sql queries just like you might use on the command line and save it as
>>> an
>>> individual object for use by any number of other objects.
>>>
>>> What may be a simple example to some is a tutorial quiz I wrote for the
>>> WEB.
>>> There are categories and each category has any number of questions along
>>> with
>>> the answers in the database. In the management portion, the
>>> administrator can
>>> choose which categories are active and how many questions out of the
>>> total
>>> available to pull from each category individually. When the quiz page is
>>> generated the correct number of questions are pulled randomly from the
>>> total
>>> active questions for each category, some questions can be set as
>>> inactive.
>>>
>>> There are "database connectors" for PostgreSQL, MySQL, Oracle, odbc, and
>>> others so you can choose any popular db or write your own connector. And
>>> there are python libraries written for these databases which prove very
>>> useful.
>>>
>>> The main thing I like about python is that the syntax pretty much forces
>>> your
>>> code to be readable by others because indention is part of the syntax
>>> rather
>>> than semicolons, parens, etc.
>>>
>>> I don't know PHP in detail but am learning more quickly because the
>>> University
>>> is "forcing" all departments to move to Drupal and we will be running our
>>> site
>>> on Drupal within a year probably although some administrative tasks will
>>> still
>>> be running on our Zope server.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> ps: remember my point is that "IF" you choose to use python this supports
>>> its
>>> use with databases and scripting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 27 October 2010 20:49:06 you wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Olá, como vai?
>>>>
>>>> Luciano Ramalho <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, Python is a general purpose programming language. It was not
>>>>> created specifically for server side scripting like PHP was. But it is
>>>>> very suitable to that task.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure talking about what something used to be is as interesting
>>>> as talking about what it is. Both Pyhton and PHP can share whatever
>>>> moniker we choose (scripting-language, programming language,
>>>> real-time, half-time, bytecoded, virtual, etc.).
>>>>
>>>>>> Not seen any scientific packages, but I've seen a few ray-tracers,
>>>>>> although they're all demo apps and fun toys (although I think that
>>>>>> applies to Python, too).
>>>>>
>>>>> No, that does not apply to Python. Python is widely used for hardcore
>>>>> scientific computing.
>>>>
>>>> I was referring to the ray-tracing part.
>>>>
>>>>> It is also the most important scripting language in large scale CGI
>>>>> settings
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Python is widely used for scripting up interfaces into other more
>>>> complex systems. But rarely is the core of the thing written entirely
>>>> in Python.
>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe your Google-foo is weak. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Or maybe he's just realizing that outside of server side web
>>>>> scripting, PHP is just not so widely used.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely, and fair enough.
>>>>
>>>>> Having used both languages, I discovered that Python is easier for
>>>>> most tasks, and one reason is that the libraries that come with Python
>>>>> are extremely robust, well tested and consistent.
>>>>
>>>> Hmm. PHP is extremely robust and well-tested, but yes, it's not all
>>>> that consistent, especially not before version 5.2+. However, things
>>>> have moved on, and with release 6 around the corner things will be
>>>> tighter still. Just like the first versions of Python were
>>>> interesting, so was PHP's, but where the biggest problem with the
>>>> evolution of PHP was the very fact that it was the most popular
>>>> language for rapid web development by far.
>>>>
>>>>> PHP is very
>>>>> practical for server-side web scripting, but it's libraries are
>>>>> unfortunately full of gotchas, traps and unexpected behaviour.
>>>>
>>>> There's gotchas in every language, even Python.
>>>>
>>>>> A key reason for that is the fact that Python has always had an
>>>>> exception-handling mechanism while PHP has grown something like that
>>>>> only a few years ago
>>>>
>>>> True enough. But earlier versions of any language are less desirable
>>>> than the latest versions, so I'm not sure this is a prevailing
>>>> argument for the horribleness of PHP or any language. These things
>>>> evolve. PHP 5.3+ and soon 6 are looking very good, indeed, but yes, we
>>>> will just have to live with a poor reputation brought on by the big
>>>> number of users and the pre 5.2+ era.
>>>>
>>>>> So, I my opinion, PHP is great at what it does best: enabling quick
>>>>> server-side Web scripting on almost any hosting service on Earth.
>>>>
>>>> I'm fairly sure you can say that because you haven't done much other
>>>> kind of PHP work. :)
>>>>
>>>>> For everything else, it is very worthwhile to learn and use a general
>>>>> purpose dynamic language such as Python, Ruby or Perl.
>>>>
>>>> Of course. Developers should learn many of languages, and choose
>>>> wisely the language best suited to the problem at hand.
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for the rant. I must confess I am a founder of the Brazilian
>>>>> Python Association and was its first president, so you can call me a
>>>>> Python advocate.
>>>>
>>>> No bias at all, really. :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ==========================================
>>> Thomas McMillan Grant Bennett Appalachian State University
>>> Operations & Systems Analyst P O Box 32026
>>> University Library Boone, North Carolina
>>> 28608
>>> (828) 262 6587
>>>
>>> Library Systems Help Desk: https://www.library.appstate.edu/help/
>>> ==========================================
>
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