I would second (well at this point third) your proposal Andromeda.

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:34 PM, Roy Tennant <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> All for it. Let's call the question, as you have put it so well. Fire up
> the voting machine!
> Roy
>
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Andromeda Yelton <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > In my experience on the LITA board (which Code4lib most emphatically is
> > not), there are sometimes discussions where all the substantive issues
> have
> > been put on the table but we have not managed to make a decision, and
> > eventually I realized that is because unstructured discussion is not a
> > mechanism for making decisions. In the LITA context, the remedy for
> > indecisiveness is to *call the question* - to put a motion on the table
> and
> > make a vote happen, because votes, unlike discussions, are decisions.
> >
> > I believe this discussion has already put the substantive issues on the
> > table, and Code4lib is failing to reach a decision - the same decision it
> > failed to reach last year - because it lacks a mechanism for calling the
> > question; discussion thus eventually peters out without a mechanism for
> > closure. Do-ocracy has been, and I hope and expect will continue to be, a
> > fantastic means for Code4lib to produce deliverables - conferences,
> > journals, discussion spaces, codes of conduct - but those are all
> > situations where self-nominating do-o-crats speak for the *project*, for
> > the deliverable, and not for the governance of the community as a whole.
> I
> > don't think any one of us, or even defined group of us, has the
> legitimacy
> > to speak for us all in that way.
> >
> > So we are...not making decisions about governance because we lack a
> > governance structure with which to make decisions?
> >
> > That said, I have seen an actual decision-making mechanism proposed in
> this
> > discussion: fire up the diebold-o-tron and vote on incorporation/do
> > nothing/fiscal sponsorship (with a second vote, if needed, to choose
> among
> > sponsors). This seems like a very *Code4lib* way of doing things.
> Assuming
> > we reached some quorum (to put a number on the table, say "70% times the
> > number of posters to the list in the last year"), is there anyone here
> who
> > would not find the outcome of that decision to be legitimate?
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Kim, Bohyun <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Jonathan is right, Cary. I am on this year's LPC for the next year's
> C4L
> > > conference at DC, and we are already working with DLF as a fiscal
> > sponsor.
> > > No legal entity status was required.
> > >
> > > Bohyun<http://www.hshsl.umaryland.edu/>
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of
> Jonathan
> > > Rochkind <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 6:18 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad
> about
> > > bylaws?)
> > >
> > > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter
> > into
> > > an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no
> "we”
> > to
> > > enter into said agreement.
> > >
> > > I've said this before and I'll keep saying it, this is not true that
> you
> > > need a legal entity to have your project fiscally sponsored by a fiscal
> > > sponsor. I know of many projects (not library related, generally
> > > 'charitable') which become fiscally sponsored without having any legal
> > > incorporation or other legal entity. The project is legally a project
> of
> > > the fiscal sponsor.
> > >
> > > It is very common. It is a common way for "charitable" projects to
> start
> > > out, without legally incorporating at all, perhaps to legally
> incorporate
> > > and separate from the fiscal sponsor at a later date.
> > >
> > > If the people we are talking to for fiscal sponsorship are fine with
> > this,
> > > it is a common thing.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Cary Gordon <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is what the FCIG has been working on.
> > > >
> > > > The bottom line is that we need some sort of entity if we want enter
> > into
> > > > an agreement with a fiscal agent or sponsor. Otherwise, there is no
> > "we”
> > > to
> > > > enter into said agreement.
> > > >
> > > > Cary
> > > >
> > > > > On Jul 24, 2017, at 1:03 PM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, it is great that things have worked out so well for so long.
> > And
> > > > there is nothing about the process of formalization that requires (or
> > is
> > > > even intended to bring about) the sidelining of the folks who have
> > worked
> > > > so hard to make the Conferences, the Journal and everything else
> such a
> > > > success.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > However, there are over 3300 folks currently subscribed to the list
> > (it
> > > > is by far the largest list that CLIR hosts), and I'm not sure about
> > > > Conference attendance, but the FCIG report tells us that "Recent
> total
> > > > budgets for the annual Code4Lib conference have exceeded $250,000" [
> > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_
> Current_Practice
> > <
> > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/FCIG_Report#Description_of_
> Current_Practice
> > >].
> > > > Frankly, if there has *ever* been a time when we could somehow
> > ascertain
> > > > the consensus of the entire community about "what it wants" in an
> > > informal
> > > > way, I would argue that it passed a while ago.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no need for governance to imply a top-down centralization
> > > > (though formally electing Roy Tennant as God-Emperor and being done
> > with
> > > it
> > > > is certainly an option open to us). Instead, it can be structured in
> > many
> > > > ways as a formalization of existing practice. There is no absolutely
> no
> > > > reason that our existing Trustees can't be elected as officers. And
> > when
> > > > they want to set their burden down for a bit, the Community can elect
> > new
> > > > ones. Making this process explicit may be more trouble in some ways,
> > but
> > > > it's also considerably more democratic.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Not least, this is a discussion that will likely be forced upon us
> if
> > > we
> > > > try to proceed with partnering with a fiscal sponsor for future
> > meetings.
> > > > Instead of just randomly copying some bylaws from somewhere, let's
> > start
> > > > thinking about how to intentionally adopt a form of governance that
> > > > preserves the things that we currently like.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Edwin Sperr
> > > > >
> > > > > Clinical Information Librarian
> > > > >
> > > > > AU / UGA Medical Partnership
> > > > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> | [log in to unmask]
> > > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Code for Libraries <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
> > > > [log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Eric Hellman <
> [log in to unmask]
> > > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 12:08:31 PM
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Governance for Code4Lib (was: What's so bad
> > > > about bylaws?)
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been pondering about this a fair amount.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think Code4Lib is an "amorphous entity with no systematic
> way
> > > of
> > > > arriving at a decision or definable point of contact". Rather, it is
> a
> > > > decentralized community with long-established norms and
> consensus-based
> > > > procedures for discerning the will of the community.
> > > > >
> > > > > The community has been able to accomplish a great deal using
> > volunteers
> > > > and, for the lack of a better word, trustees. The trustees have been
> > > > largely self-appointed or have responded to community requests. These
> > > > trustees manage assets and capabilities for the benefit of the
> > community.
> > > > The asset that has put the largest burden on the part of the trustee
> > has
> > > > been the annual conference and the corresponding fiscal liabilities.
> > > > Because of the burden of this trusteeship, it has been handed off
> from
> > > > trustee to trustee.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it would help if we reframed the discussion away from
> > > > "formalizing governance of Code4Lib" to "improving the fiscal
> > continuity
> > > of
> > > > a trustee for one (or more) of the Code4Lib community
> > > assets/liabilities",
> > > > which I think the fiscal continuity group has advanced considerably.
> > > > >
> > > > > There has been some good work done in developing and documenting
> the
> > > > norms and procedures in our community. For example:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://code4lib.org/about <https://code4lib.org/about>
> > > > > About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about <
> > > https://code4lib.org/about
> > > > >>
> > > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/>
> > > > > code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a
> > > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects,
> > curators,
> > > > catalogers, artists and instigators ...
> > > > >
> > > > > About | code4lib<https://code4lib.org/about <
> > > https://code4lib.org/about
> > > > >>
> > > > > code4lib.org <http://code4lib.org/>
> > > > > code4lib isn't entirely about code or libraries. It is a
> > > > volunteer-driven collective of hackers, designers, architects,
> > curators,
> > > > catalogers, artists and instigators ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib <
> > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib> <
> > > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib <
> > > https://wiki.code4lib.org/
> > > > How_to_hack_code4lib>>
> > > > > How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki.
> > code4lib.org/How_to_hack_
> > > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>>
> > > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/>
> > > > > Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The
> > > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available
> to
> > > > help you quickly get the feel ...
> > > > >
> > > > > How to hack code4lib - Code4Lib<https://wiki.
> > code4lib.org/How_to_hack_
> > > > code4lib <https://wiki.code4lib.org/How_to_hack_code4lib>>
> > > > > wiki.code4lib.org <http://wiki.code4lib.org/>
> > > > > Hop into the #code4lib IRC channel and listen for a while. The
> > > > conference back channel on IRC is the most invaluable tool available
> to
> > > > help you quickly get the feel ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5> <
> > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6
> .
> > > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h
> > > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > >
> > > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-
> > > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.
> > > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/>
> > > > > How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or,
> how
> > > do
> > > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing
> things?
> > > If
> > > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community
> > > (IRC,
> > > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe we
> > > s...
> > > > >
> > > > > [https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p <https://lh6
> .
> > > > googleusercontent.com/QNBNsGIckkoGTAfhTZn3mAJGHTD-
> > > > 1AGkFTMViVGoNiYuMAADkx94tfyT-JrQgOI0y2-ilg=w1200-h630-p>]<h
> > > > ttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5 <
> > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > >
> > > > > Code4Lib indoctrination<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-
> > > > 9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.
> > > > 99orczg96qj5 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m-9VtL7L_fUxl2hTF_
> > > > YZSdFRfucaLtmHvLSzom6XPVM/edit?pli=1#heading=h.99orczg96qj5>>
> > > > > docs.google.com <http://docs.google.com/>
> > > > > How do we make code4lib a more inclusive place for newcomers? or,
> how
> > > do
> > > > we quickly indoctrinate newbies to our values and ways of doing
> things?
> > > If
> > > > any, what made you feel like an “outsider” at the Code4Lib community
> > > (IRC,
> > > > Listserv, etc)? Inside jokes in IRC or listserv suggestions? Maybe we
> > > s...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/
> > > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md><htt
> > > > ps://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > > master/code_of_conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/
> > > > antiharassment-policy/blob/master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 <
> > > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400
> >]<https://
> > > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > master/code_of_conduct.md
> > > <
> > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > >
> > > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...<
> > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> master/code_of_
> > > > conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > > github.com <http://github.com/>
> > > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting
> > space
> > > > >
> > > > > [https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400 <
> > > > https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/1158447?v=3&s=400
> >]<https://
> > > > github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > master/code_of_conduct.md
> > > <
> > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > >
> > > > > antiharassment-policy/code_of_conduct.md at master ...<
> > > > https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> master/code_of_
> > > > conduct.md <https://github.com/code4lib/antiharassment-policy/blob/
> > > > master/code_of_conduct.md>>
> > > > > github.com <http://github.com/>
> > > > > antiharassment-policy - Code4lib anti-harassment policy drafting
> > space
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It may be useful to further document Code4lib's consensus-based
> > > > procedures and policies for the benefit of legal entities that need
> to
> > > work
> > > > with us, but a formal governance structure for the community (as
> > opposed
> > > to
> > > > that of an asset trustee) is something that I don't think the
> community
> > > > needs or wants.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, I think the notion that we're indebted to "dumb luck" forgets
> > > that
> > > > "luck" is created by a lot of hard work.
> > > > >
> > > > > Eric
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Jul 24, 2017, at 11:01 AM, EDWIN VINCENT SPERR <[log in to unmask]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is true that the Community has held 12 annual conferences
> without
> > > > formalization. And yes, it is likely *possible* to continue with the
> > > > current model of every conference being essentially a separate
> entity,
> > > and
> > > > support from the larger community being on an ad-hoc basis. But the
> > > reason
> > > > we are having this discussion is that this is not a particularly good
> > > > option -- it depends not only on good will, but (as Coral has noted)
> > dumb
> > > > luck as well. It also means more stress and effort on the part of
> each
> > > > year's organizers than necessary.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> However, if we *do* form a relationship with another entity (or
> > > > self-incorporate), some person or persons will sign an agreement that
> > > binds
> > > > us, however you define "us", to a course of action that will likely
> > span
> > > > several conferences. This is indeed a significantly different type of
> > > > decision than has come before, and it requires a different way of
> doing
> > > > business. Everybody has had a bad experience or two with bureaucracy,
> > but
> > > > the current approach of trying to maintain Code4Lib as an amorphous
> > > entity
> > > > with no systematic way of arriving at a decision or definable point
> of
> > > > contact has real and tangible drawbacks.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> So, in the spirit of the current way of doing things, I propose
> the
> > > > formation of an ad-hoc, self-nominated committee (perhaps the last of
> > its
> > > > kind) to investigate a formal governance structure for Code4Lib and
> > then
> > > > assist the Community with its implementation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If you're interested in joining me, please contact me off-list:
> > > > [log in to unmask]
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Date:    Fri, 21 Jul 2017 16:35:13 -0400
> > > > >>> From:    Adam Constabaris <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: What's so bad about bylaws?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> It's an interesting question, but code4lib -- whatever exactly
> that
> > > is
> > > > --
> > > > >>> has managed to make all sorts of decisions, about where to hold
> > > > >>> conferences, keynote speakers, etc. for over a decade without
> > > > formalizing.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> I am unclear on the exact details, but there is some carryover of
> > > > >>> conference funds from year to year and if I had to guess -- and
> > this
> > > > is a
> > > > >>> guess -- it relies on the good will of the previous year's fiscal
> > > > sponsor(s)
> > > > >>> transferring the funds to the upcoming year's fiscal sponsor(s).
> > > > However
> > > > >>> exactly that process works, it's happened multiple times at the
> > > > direction
> > > > >>> of the community; each time, though, different parties are
> > involved.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> The F*C*IG is attempting to address (among other things) the
> > > > tenuousness of
> > > > >>> that arrangement, and they've identified a number of proposals
> that
> > > > appear
> > > > >>> to yield enough formal organization to ensure continuity.   The
> > > > >>> decision doesn't strike me as more momentous or different in kind
> > > from
> > > > the ones code4lib has
> > > > >>> made in the past, and shouldn't require any new mechanisms.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Ed Sperr
> > > > >> Clinical Information Librarian
> > > > >> AU/UGA Medical Partnership
> > > > >> Athens, GA
> > > > >> [log in to unmask] | [log in to unmask]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andromeda Yelton
> > Senior Software Engineer, MIT Libraries: https://libraries.mit.edu/
> > President, Library & Information Technology Association:
> > http://www.lita.org
> > http://andromedayelton.com
> > @ThatAndromeda <http://twitter.com/ThatAndromeda>
> >
>